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You've learned the Polyvagal Theory and can now recognize yourself as being stuck in a defensive state. Now you're wondering what to do next. Is it really possible to get unstuck, especially from a chronic, lifelong freeze? Can you genuinely build your body’s capacity for safety after a lifetime without it? These aren't just academic questions. They are deeply personal, and the answers can feel out of reach. That’s why I want to share a story from a member of the Unstucking Academy , Janie. She volunteered to share her journey of successfully unstucking from a lifelong freeze, offering her story, her tools, and her hard-won wisdom. What Being "Stuck" Felt Like Janie began by describing her baseline state for most of her life as freeze . I would say in general terms, it was more or less a freeze. Sometimes maybe dorsal, sometimes maybe flight, depending on my age and circumstances. But I really had very little acquaintance with ventral vagal, given my early circumstances. This lifelong freeze wasn't just a concept; it had real-world consequences. A major turning point came after her husband, who had been a source of safety and connection, passed away. After my husband died, no tears would come. I was numb. I mean, it's okay to be numb for a short time, but I was numb for five years and I said, 'Something is stuck in here.' I'm emotionally frozen. Another decisive moment of realization occurred during a women's retreat in Hawaii. A ceremony there unexpectedly surfaced a core wound of feeling unloved, which sent her into a deep spiral of shame. That raw, painful experience became the catalyst. It was a messy, difficult "unstucking," but it was the moment she knew she had to get help. She reached out to a therapist. The Path to Freeze State Recovery: Tools and Practices Getting unstuck is a process, not a single event. For Janie, it involved finding the right support and committing to consistent practices. 1. Finding the Right Therapy Her first therapist, while a kind person, used Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), which wasn't the right fit. She was eventually referred to a trauma specialist trained in Somatic Experiencing . This changed everything. We were dispensing of the stories from pretty much the get-go. Her particular protocol is just gazing, being very present, supplying her spirit of generosity, her mirroring... She likened it to a plant that has completely dried up... it will take some time for me to start being able to absorb those wonderful, relational, ventral vagal vibes from her. 2. The Power of Co-Regulation One of the most critical pieces of Janie's journey has been connecting with a small, dedicated group of women. This is not group therapy; it's a structured, supportive space for co-regulation . We are sharing with each other what is kind of moving through our system... Then the other members mirror back to us what we have said in a way that is to aid us to clarify what our process is. And to offer connection, support, complete acceptance, affection, encouragement. 3 . Daily Rituals and Deepening Insight Janie integrated daily practices to ground her system and build self-awareness. Meditation:  Using Dan Siegel's Wheel of Awareness to get beneath her regular frame of mind and connect with a deeper sense of self. Learning:  Reading books by authors like Lindsay Gibson ( Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents ) helped demystify her experience and remove self-blame. Nightly Ritual:  An "acknowledgement meditation" in bed to quiet her mind, tune into her felt sense, and process the day. 4 . A Nervous System "Transplant" Janie also had a profound experience with the Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP) , which she described as feeling like a "nervous system transplant." It gave her a powerful, tangible experience of a "10 out of 10" safety state, which became a touchstone for her nervous system to return to. The Transformation: From a 1 to a 10 After years of this dedicated work, the change is huge - Janie used to live at a 1 or 2 out of 10  on the safety scale, in a constant state of anxiety. Today, her baseline is a 5 to 7 out of 10. The anxiety is almost gone. And she can now access a 10 out of 10 . What does that feel like? It's fantastic. It's a place where I can kind of spread out internally. I don't feel constricted. It offers a clarity of thought, a certain kind of vitality and interest in life... It's a place of safety and affection, comfort. This isn't just an internal feeling. It shows up in her life . She shared a story about a neighbor who used to intimidate her. Recently, when he voiced an opinion about her property, she didn't shrink. She resourced herself, sized up the situation, and realized she didn't need to feel intimidated. The discomfort was gone. Those deep, meaningful connections she's built are now sustaining her. Those connections, those meaningful connections are very sustaining. That sustaining nature carries itself through situations that used to cause me anxiety, used to kind of have me freeze up. Janie's Advice for You I asked Janie for one piece of practical advice for someone who is stuck. Her answer gets to the heart of the matter. 1. Find a Buddy and Co-Regulate. Reach out for somebody to have regular conversations with about this stuff. It's one thing to get it cognitively, but for the nervous system to relearn, it needs to be done in relationship. There needs to be a certain amount of co-regulation going on. 2. Ho nor Your Own Pace. Honoring one's own pace is really important. It's the wisdom of the nervous system—it'll let you know when something is moving too quickly or you're pressing too much. When one is working along with it, it will find its way. It really has our best interests at heart. You're stuck. Not broken. Janie's freeze state recovery story is a powerful testament to the fact that you are stuck, not broken.   Her success continually came back to two pillars: safety and co-regulation. She found them with her therapist, her women's group, SSP experience, and within the Unstucking Academy . Even when virtual, a connection is a connection. No, it's not ideal. But it’s a heckuva lot better than nothing and a powerful supplement to other safety-building practices. Your Next Steps: I challenge you to look at your own life. I bet you have connections right at your fingertips that you're neglecting. An old friend, a family member, a neighbor. A text or a phone call is better than silence. I bet you're already in a community, free or paid, that you've been neglecting. Maybe it’s time to take advantage of what’s already in front of you. Build connections and work at your own pace in the Unstucking Academy. In the Unstucking Academy, you get the unstucking knowledge you need through my clear and simple coursework and connections with others so you're never alone. As Janie recommends, you can work at your own pace - learn and implement when you're ready. Q&A Q: What were the key tools and practices that aided in the recovery from a lifelong freeze state? A:  The recovery process involved several critical components: finding a trauma specialist trained in Somatic Experiencing, co-regulating with a small and supportive group, and integrating daily rituals like meditation and learning. A profound experience with the Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP) also provided a tangible reference point for what deep safety feels like.  Q: How did the experience of safety change after dedicated freee state recovery work? A:  Before the work, the baseline was a 1 or 2 out of 10 on the safety scale, characterized by constant anxiety. Afterward, the baseline shifted to a 5 to 7 out of 10, with anxiety almost gone. A "10 out of 10" became accessible, described as a state of internal spaciousness, clarity of thought, vitality, and comfort. Q: What is the primary advice for someone who is currently stuck? First, find someone to co-regulate with, because the nervous system relearns through relationship. Second, honor your own pace and trust the wisdom of your nervous system, as it knows when you are pushing too hard and will find its own way toward healing. Quotes from this Blog: Getting unstuck is a process, not a single event. Her success continually came back to two pillars: safety and co-regulation. You're stuck. Not broken.   Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He hosts the Stuck Not Broken podcast  and authored the Stuck Not Broken book series . Justin is passionate about the Polyvagal Theory and proudly serves on the Polyvagal Institute 's Editorial Board. He specializes in treating trauma and helps individuals get "unstuck" from their defensive states.

Life can throw things at us that knock us completely off balance. A stressful event, a painful breakup, or a period of intense pressure can leave us feeling like a stranger in our own bodies, operating in a constant state of high alert. This experience was powerfully shared by a 17-year-old listener of the Stuck Not Broken  podcast , who we'll call "Chuck." His story is a perfect illustration of what it feels like to be stuck in survival mode, and his journey to understand it offers a map for anyone feeling lost in a similar state. Stuck Not Broken podcast episode 257 A Story of Stuck in Survival Mode Chuck reached out to share his experience after his first serious relationship ended, and he felt like he was stuck in survival mode. The relationship itself was intensely stressful, triggering an anxious attachment style he didn't even know he had, he told me. He bravely decided to end the relationship, recognizing it was more than he could handle. But the relief he hoped for never came. Nine months later, he described his life as a "living hell." I've been experiencing constant anxiety symptoms... along with fatigue, dizziness, extreme overthinking, persistent worry, high stress, headaches, migraines, weakened immunity, intrusive thoughts, physical weakness, appetite changes, tightness in my chest, and a constant sense of carrying a heavy emotional weight and tension with me wherever I go. I'm overly reactive, constantly on edge, jumpy and stuck in a mindset where it feels like nothing will ever change, like I'm trapped forever. I feel helpless and extremely hopeless. First, let's acknowledge the immense courage it takes to recognize when something is too much and to take steps to care for yourself, as Chuck did. That is an incredible act of self-awareness. Decoding the Signals: A Polyvagal Perspective Chuck’s description is a masterclass in the language of a dysregulated nervous system. While I can't (nor will) diagnose from a distance, we can use the lens of Polyvagal Theory to understand the patterns. When I hear phrases like "I'm trapped," "helpless,"  and "hopeless,"  my mind immediately goes to the Freeze  state. Freeze is a hybrid state of high activation (the sympathetic fight/flight system is floored) and immobilization (the dorsal vagal shutdown system puts on the brakes). Many of Chuck's symptoms point toward this complex state: Constant Anxiety & Tension:  This could be the high sympathetic activation of freeze, a low-level panic that's always humming in the background. Fatigue & Physical Weakness:  People in a chronic freeze state often cycle between the high-energy tension of being "on" and the subsequent crash into exhaustion and shutdown. Extreme Overthinking & Intrusive Thoughts:  The mind races, trying to find a way out of the perceived trap. Tightness in the Chest:  A classic sign of both anxiety (sympathetic) and the immobilization of freeze. Chuck also mentioned that despite this internal war, he could still function—go to school, hang out with friends, and even laugh. This is incredibly common. A stuck defensive state doesn't mean you are debilitated 24/7. When you're with friends, their smiles, laughter, and presence act as cues of safety , temporarily dialing down the defensive activation and allowing your true self to emerge. The Most Important Step (Even If You Don't Know Your State) Chuck felt stuck and couldn't definitively name his state. And he's not alone. Many people find it difficult to pinpoint exactly where they are on the polyvagal ladder. Here is the most important takeaway: You don't have to know your exact defensive state to begin healing. If you know you're dysregulated, you also know you don't have enough safety activation . Therefore, the most powerful, effective, and essential first step is to practice feeling safe. Building the strength of your ventral vagal safety state is the foundation for everything else. It calms the defensive systems, allows for clearer thinking, and creates the capacity to handle the difficult emotions that arise. You're Stuck. Not Broken. It's easy to feel broken when your internal world is in turmoil. But from a polyvagal perspective, you are not broken. You are stuck. Your nervous system is deploying ancient, adaptive survival strategies that are no longer serving you in the present moment. This means things are not hopeless, and you are not helpless. Many people wish they could "get back to their old self." But was that old self truly regulated? Or were they just coping better, using strategies to numb or ignore the dysregulation that was already there? Instead of going back, the goal is to move forward. To become the version of yourself that has more capacity for safety, connection, peace, and mindfulness. We don't know exactly who that person is yet, and that's a beautiful thing. Your Path Forward out of Stuck in Survival Mode: A Simple, Daily Practice So, where do you begin? You start small. You start with hope. You are already learning, reflecting, and seeking help—that is the opposite of helpless. The next step is to intentionally and consistently practice safety. D escribe, Don't Explain: When you feel "anxious" or "overwhelmed," try to move away from the story ( explaining ) and into the body ( describing ). What does it feel like? "A tightness in my chest, a buzzing in my hands, a hollow feeling in my stomach." This connects you to your direct experience without judgment. Start a Mini-Practice: The goal is not to eliminate the defensive feelings, but to balance them with safety moments. Your next step is simple but potentially life-changing: Once a day, for just 30 seconds, intentionally use one of your senses. Here are a few examples: Sight:  Really look at the intricate pattern on a leaf. Sound:  Close your eyes and just listen to the birds outside your window. Touch:  Feel the texture of your shirt or the warmth of a mug in your hands. This isn't about fixing anything. It's about giving your nervous system a 30-second anchor in the safety of the present moment. That is an avenue for hope. That is how you begin to build a new foundation, one moment at a time. Thank you, Chuck, for your vulnerability. Your story is a reminder that even in our darkest moments, we are not broken, and a path toward safety is always available. The Unstucking Academy If you're new to the Polyvagal Theory, looking to deepen your learning, and want to connect with others, then the Foundations Membership is just for you - learn through two courses, join Justin and others in a monthly Q&A, and discuss with others in the forum so you're never alone. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > Q&A Q: What is the "Freeze" state from a Polyvagal perspective? A:  Freeze is a hybrid state where the sympathetic (fight/flight) system is highly activated while the immobilizing dorsal vagal (shutdown) system is also engaged. Q: Why can I still laugh with friends and seem to function normally if my nervous system is stuck in a defensive state? A:  This is very common. The presence of friends—their smiles, laughter, and engagement—can act as powerful cues of safety. These cues temporarily dial down the defensive activation, allowing your more authentic, socially engaged self (your ventral vagal state) to emerge for a while. Q: What is the most effective first step to take when you feel stuck in survival mode? A:  The most essential first step is to intentionally and consistently practice feeling safe. Since any dysregulated state means you don't have enough safety activation, building the strength of your ventral vagal safety state is the foundation for calming the defensive systems and creating the capacity for healing. Is there a place for me to go to learn more about the Polyvagal Theory and connect with others? Yes! The Foundations Membership in the Unstucking Academy  is the perfect place. You can learn through two courses, join Justin and others in a monthly Q&A, and discuss with others in the forum. Quotes from this Blog: You don't have to know your exact defensive state to begin healing. From a polyvagal perspective, you are not broken. You are stuck. Instead of going back, the goal is to move forward. To become the version of yourself that has more capacity for safety, connection, peace, and mindfulness.   Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He hosts the Stuck Not Broken podcast  and authored the Stuck Not Broken book series . Justin is passionate about the Polyvagal Theory and proudly serves on the Polyvagal Institute 's Editorial Board. He specializes in treating trauma and helps individuals get "unstuck" from their defensive states.

Have you ever felt so overwhelmed that you just shut down emotionally and physically? Perhaps you've experienced a sudden loss of energy, a chronic feeling of numbness, or a disconnection from the world around you. These are all common symptoms of what's known as dorsal vagal shutdown, a physiological response to stress that can leave us feeling helpless and unable to cope. I'm guessing that's what brings you here. You probably think something is wrong with you or things won't improve. You may be feeling hopeless and helpless. But what exactly is dorsal vagal shutdown, and how can we recognize and manage it? In this blog, I'll dive deeply into the topic of dorsal vagal shutdowns and provide you with some concrete next steps. Whether you're a therapist, a coach, or simply someone interested in learning more about the human body and mind, this blog will provide valuable insights into an intriguing aspect of our physiology. I will also connect it to trauma and give you concrete next steps. Jump to a section: understanding dorsal vagal shutdown causes of dorsal vagal shutdown symptoms of dorsal vagal shutdown the experience of dorsal vagal shutdown the link between trauma and dorsal vagal shutdown coming out of a dorsal vagal shutdown strategies to overcome a dorsal vagal shutdown seeking professional help for dorsal vagal shutdown Understanding Dorsal Vagal Shutdown Dorsal vagal shutdown is a potential physiological response to stress that occurs when the body's autonomic nervous system (ANS) is activated. The ANS regulates many of the body's automatic functions, such as heart rate, breathing, and digestion. Basically, it regulates all the stuff we don't have to think about. According to Stephen Porges' Polyvagal Theory , the ANS has three main branches with three primary states the body can exist in. The three primary states of the body are: safety & social engagement , regulated by the ventral vagal branch flight & fight mobility , regulated by the sympathetic branch shutdown immobility , regulated by the dorsal vagal branch When the body is exposed to danger, the ANS shifts out of the safety state, the sympathetic flight/fight state is activated, and the body prepares to fight or flee. However, when the stress is too intense or prolonged, the body may shift into a dorsal vagal shutdown, a protective response that helps the body conserve energy and resources. In the shutdown state, the body's functions slow down significantly in an evolutionary attempt to appear dead. Heart rate and breathing slow down, digestion is inhibited, and the body may feel numb or disconnected. Causes of Dorsal Vagal Shutdown Various stressors, including physical trauma, emotional trauma, chronic stress, and illness can trigger dorsal vagal shutdown. Any situation that overwhelms the body's ability to cope can lead to dorsal vagal shutdown. For example, a car accident, a natural disaster, or a physical assault can all trigger this response. Similarly, ongoing stressors such as financial problems, relationship issues, or work-related stress can lead to a dorsal vagal shutdown. Of course, there are different presentations and symptoms of shutdown, which I will discuss in the next section. Chronically existing in a shutdown state won't be the same experience as entering shutdown in a life-threatening instance. In addition to external stressors, internal factors can contribute to dorsal vagal shutdown. For example, chronic pain, illness, or inflammation can activate the body's stress response, eventually triggering or contributing to a dorsal vagal shutdown. Similarly, unresolved emotional issues such as past trauma or grief can also contribute to this response. Symptoms of Dorsal Vagal Shutdown Dorsal vagal shutdown can manifest in various ways, depending on the individual and the situation. Shutdown can outwardly look obvious, but it can also be more hidden and difficult to detect. Outwardly, in a moment of life threat, someone in a dorsal vagal shutdown will physically collapse and go limp. The evolutionary benefit is to mimic death, allowing a predator to ignore the organism and instead focus on another prey. But the shutdown triggered by ongoing stress is more difficult to detect. Common symptoms of dorsal vagal shutdown include: numbness or dissociation feeling disconnected from reality or other people low energy or fatigue slow heart rate or breathing digestive problems or nausea These symptoms can be distressing and interfere with daily functioning, making it difficult to work, socialize, or engage in self-care activities. The experience of chronic dorsal vagal shutdown My therapy clients consistently describe their dorsal vagal shutdown in similar ways. Their lived experience is like being all alone in a dark room. They say they are lying down on the floor of the dark room, limp and without energy. They often describe the dark room as a black, endless void without walls—the feeling of aloneness and the lack of energy permeate. The dark room description is one possible experience in a chronic dorsal vagal shutdown. Yes, it probably sounds like depression. The Polyvagal Theory hypothesizes that being stuck in a shutdown autonomic state may underlie depression. The Link Between Trauma and Dorsal Vagal Shutdown Trauma and dorsal vagal shutdown go hand-in-hand. To understand this, let's first understand what "trauma" is. What trauma is Imagine two people sitting in the back seat of a car. A third person is driving and crashes the car head-first into a tree. Both of the backseat passengers have gone through the same basic event. But they may have very different immediate and future reactions to it. Passenger A may leave that accident, check to ensure safety, and breathe a sigh of relief. Passenger B, on the other hand, may not. Passenger B may be stuck in a traumatized state and unable to immediately get back to a baseline where they can breathe that sigh of relief. Passenger B may be terrified whenever they get into a car for months, while Passenger A does not feel those effects. Traumatic events have immediate and long-lasting effects on the state of the Autonomic Nervous System. In our car crash example, Passengers A & B both probably initially panicked, freezing their entire body and bracing for impact. Passenger A may have been able to physically leave the crash and self-regulate back into their safety state once the initial danger had passed. Passenger B may have gotten trapped in the car, and their door was unable to open. Their frozen state did not subside; they remained in that defensive state and could not exit it. On top of that, let's assume that Passenger B was ridiculed for the way their body responded to the event. Or that loved one's in B's life said they did not believe B had been through the accident. Different people can react differently to similar experiences. Two individuals may have distinct immediate and long-term responses to the same event, just like our passengers. I actually collected all of my trauma content for you in the free Members' Center . Sign up as a site member to access my curated content, including information on trauma and more. The point - Trauma is not the event . Trauma is the impact of the event. Trauma is also the lack of events, like when a parent does not provide the basics to form a healthy attachment with their child. More specifically - Trauma is being stuck in a defensive state. Trauma is the inability to access the ventral vagal autonomic pathways responsible for safety and social engagement. How Dorsal Vagal Shutdown Contributes to Trauma The dorsal vagal shutdown state is one of the ANS' potential defensive states. One can be traumatized and stuck in any of the Polyvagal defensive states. These are all of the Polyvagal defensive states: flight/fight shutdown freeze Chronic disruption of connectedness - Shutdown My therapy clients often get stuck in a dorsal vagal shutdown state by repeatedly being cut off from safe others. This path of trauma usually results from some form of abuse when one is younger. But being cut off from safe others can also occur in domestic violence situations or hostage situations. These are situations that the individual cannot escape or fight against. The individual may enter a dorsal vagal shutdown dominant state if these defensive strategies are unsuccessful. Acute life threat reaction - Freeze But another path of trauma could also lead to dorsal vagal activation - acute life-threat reaction. In this path of trauma, an individual's ANS shifts into flight/fight, but cannot utilize the impulse to escape or be aggressive. While this individual is in flight/fight, they are also immobilized through force or perception. The immobilization of flight/fight creates a mixed state - freeze. Freeze is the combination of flight/fight and shutdown activation. Sympathetic plus dorsal vagal shutdown. Mobilization plus immobilization. A panic attack is an excellent example of freeze. If someone is immobilized while in flight/fight, they risk being left in a traumatized state. The immobility of dorsal vagal shutdown freezes their flight/fight activation into their system. This activation may remain dormant until triggered by reminders of the trauma's context. Frozen activation could also present itself through flashbacks, panic attacks, or explosive rage. Freeze and shutdown are different , though they both involve immobilization. Coming out of a chronic dorsal vagal shutdown Evolutionarily, it's possible to come out of a dorsal vagal shutdown. This Polyvagal state evolved within us as a survival function. Shutdown is intended to increase the chances of survival in the face of a life threat by going into an immobile state and conserving the body's resources and slowing down its processes. Wild animals can emerge from a shutdown death feign. They can shift up their Polyvagal ladder into their sympathetic fight state. If they can successfully utilize their fight energy, they can further climb their ladder into flight and then into their safety state. Shutdown evolved to be a state we enter into and come out of in brief periods of time. However, humans enter shutdown and remain in shutdown. There are many reasons we stay stuck, like things we do to ourselves and things we do to each other. Coming out of a chronic dorsal vagal shutdown is not quick for us. Instead, we need to emerge from shutdown slowly . Our sympathetic flight/fight energy will enter our system as we do so. The return of sympathetic energy can be overwhelming for people, which stops the process and sends them back into shutdown. We often turn to behavioral adaptations as a means of coping with the discomfort of emerging from shutdown. However, we need to move beyond these behavioral adaptations. And even beyond coping or managing the experiences. Instead, someone in shutdown needs to embrace mindfulness and access their state of safety. Strategies to Recover from Dorsal Vagal Shutdown A dorsal vagal shutdown does not need to be permanent. It is generally possible to live a more connected and fulfilling life. Co-regulation & connection I had the pleasure of interviewing Deb Dana , and she provided a beautiful analogy of coming out of shutdown, comparing it to a turtle coming out of its shell. To get a turtle to come out of the shell, you don't knock on its shell and you don't shake them... You just kinda sit there patiently... But you really have to be beaming that ventral vagal energy to that system. She's saying someone in shutdown cannot be forced out of shutdown. Instead, they need to know it's safe to emerge from the shutdown. "Knowing" does not refer to cognitive knowing. It refers to a biological knowing; of receiving cues of safety from the external environment through neuroception . Cues of safety from a safe other come through co-regulation. When Deb says we need to "beam" safety state cues to someone in shutdown, she is referring to this. So if someone in shutdown can connect with safe others that provide them with a sense of safety, this can be helpful. However, this can be difficult, especially for someone in shutdown. So the next option might be a better starting point. Passive safety cues from the environment I recommend starting with the environment in which you live. It's possible to increase the safety cues that your system detects. Passive safety cues are signals from the environment that are neurocepted as safe. They are cues that provide calm to your body. Everything around you right now is affecting your Polyvagal state. Pieces of your environment, such as: lighting sound smells proximity and more These and many more passive environmental cues are detected as either more or less safe. For the most part, they're probably benign and don't have a significant impact on your feelings of calm. However, they also could have a significant impact. For example, you may be in an environment that provides you with numerous safety cues. But imagine hearing a train blaring its horn outside of your window. This would probably have a significant impact on your level of relaxation and calm. Extreme example, I know. Let's try another one. Imagine having a great environment where you feel safe, like a beach. But then, someone invades your space. Your feelings of safety will lessen depending on your relationship with that person and their proximity to you. The point - Environmental cues like proximity and lighting can impact your access to your safety state. Apply this idea to your home environment. Do an assessment of your home and identify what cues provide you with more feelings of safety and which diminish your safety experiences. It's possible to manipulate your environment to provide more passive safety cues. In the Building Safety Anchors course , this is covered in much more detail, and I provide you with specific steps to create your own personal safety cue environment. Mindfully experience the passive safety cues. After setting up more safety cues, the next step is to experience them mindfully. Allow yourself to feel a sense of calm and safety, and experience your connection with your external environment. Mindfully allow the dorsal vagal shutdown experience from safety. If you can mindfully connect with your environment, the next step is to allow slight dorsal vagal activation. This is easier than it sounds. In shutdown, the body immobilizes. So allow yourself to immobilize. Allow yourself to be immobile while taking in your passive safety cues mindfully. In shutdown, the environment is typically overwhelming and overstimulating. So listen to this and reduce stimulation. Then experience what it's like to be immobile while safe, with lower stimulation. If you allow yourself to have a mindful experience of your shutdown, then your body's natural capacity to self-regulate can emerge. As you exit shutdown, your flight/fight energy will return to your system. Seeking Professional Help for Dorsal Vagal Shutdown If you're experiencing symptoms of dorsal vagal shutdown, seeking professional help and guidance is important. A mental health professional or other healthcare provider can help you understand the underlying causes of your symptoms and develop a personalized treatment plan to address them. If you need therapy, find a therapist. I recommend a Polyvagal-informed one if you can find one. There is hope in coming out of shutdown! Existing in a chronic dorsal vagal shutdown is tough, I know. Shutdown has been my "home away from home" my entire life. It's possible to recover from it, although it's a lengthy process. Thanks for reading this blog. I hope you found it informative and have some next steps on what you can do. Get relief from shutdown I created courses and a private community to help you get relief from your stuck dorsal vagal shutdown state. The classes teach you how to get unstuck, and the community supports you throughout your journey. Eva is a member of the Unstucking Academy and shares her unstucking success story , providing you with 17 tips. Do you trust in your ability to self-regulate? As a biological organism, you are compelled to self-regulate. You must. However, trauma gets in the way. Do you still have confidence in your ability to self-regulate? Read more here > Q&A Q: What is dorsal vagal shutdown? A: Dorsal vagal shutdown is a physiological response to stress where the body conserves energy and resources by slowing down its functions, leading to symptoms such as numbness, disconnection, and low energy. Q: What causes dorsal vagal shutdown? A: Various stressors, including physical and emotional trauma, chronic stress, and illness, can trigger dorsal vagal shutdown. Internal factors like chronic pain and unresolved emotional issues can also contribute to this response. Q: How can I recover from dorsal vagal shutdown? A: Recovery involves co-regulation and connection with safe others, enhancing passive safety cues in your environment, mindfully experiencing these cues, and gradually allowing slight dorsal vagal activation while feeling safe and supported. Quotes from this blog: Shutdown evolved to be a state we enter into and come out of in brief periods of time. However, humans enter shutdown and remain in shutdown. Trauma is not the event. Trauma is the impact of the event. Trauma is also the lack of events, like when a parent does not provide the basics to form a healthy attachment with their child. In shutdown, the environment is typically overwhelming and overstimulating. So listen to this and reduce stimulation. Then experience what it's like to be immobile, while safe, with lower stimulation. Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He is the host of the Stuck Not Broken podcast and author of the Stuck Not Broken Book series . He specializes in treating trauma and helps individuals get "unstuck" from their defensive states.

You want to be more mindful to reduce negative emotions like stress, anxiety, worry, and panic. However, finding time for long meditative sessions can be a challenge, and silence is too difficult. What if there was an easier way to incorporate mindfulness into your day? In this blog, I will share a simple but essential mindfulness ingredient: incorporating small moments of silence into your daily routine. Doing so lets you practice feeling safe and reduce your negative emotional experiences. These small moments of mindful silence and solitude will help you to feel more calm, confident, and connected. In this blog: silence is essential how noise disrupts mindfulness silence and mindfulness feeling safe through mindfulness practical tips for incorporating silence “In Silence there is eloquence. Stop weaving and see how the pattern improves.” -Rumi Silence is essential for mindfulness. Silence is a powerful tool. It offers a much-needed break in a world filled with constant noise and stimulation. It allows us to pause, breathe, and simply be. In these quiet moments, we can truly tune into our bodies and surroundings, practicing mindfulness in its purest form. The natural condition of life is silence. Before technology and bustling cities, silence must have been ever-present. Of course, there were sounds of neighbors, animals, trees in the wind, and more. But underneath that was a constant and steady stream of accessible silence. The silence was a friend. When noise disrupted the silence, our bodies neurocepted the sound as safety or danger. The crack of a twig behind us alerted us to possible danger. The low, deep rumble in the distance signaled an avalanche. The squawking of birds indicated a predator was near. Silence and survival went hand in hand. “The world's continual breathing is what we hear and call silence.” -Clarice Lispector, The Passion According to G.H. How noise disrupts mindfulness. True and natural silence is something we probably cannot access day to day. Check your level of silence right now. What do you hear? It may be quiet , but I doubt there is actual silence. You likely hear people in the background, traffic in the distance, or the hums of fluorescent lights or a refrigerator. Silence still exists, but we are effectively cut off from it. And in place of the stillness of friendly silence, we are left with the unease of unrelenting sound. Noise can lead to sympathetic activation. You may not be aware of it, but your body probably is constantly in some level of sympathetic activation. The sympathetic system is responsible for your body's ability to mobilize. You use mobilization for playing and dancing when safe. However, the sympathetic system can also be used to run and fight when in danger. Being in a state of sympathetic activation doesn't mean you're actually running away or fighting something. Likely, you feel this constant activation through emotions such as: stress anxiety anger overwhelm Noise can trigger our sympathetic state. Think of a time when someone scared you by yelling, "BOO!" Your body likely tensed up in a freeze state. Part of freeze activation is flight/fight, but along with immobility of shutdown. Another example is music. Music can trigger our mobilization state, resulting in dance or tapping your foot in rhythm. Constant background noise has the same impact - it mobilizes us, though probably just a little. But it may be enough to notice. This constant mobilization is likely felt as stress, general unease, or even anxiety. Silence & Mindfulness Mindfulness is the ability to attune to the present moment. Mindfulness leads to connection with the external environment and your internal world. Mindfulness and connection go together. But in order to get to mindfulness and connection, you need to exist in literal external safety. From external safety, there is a chance to exist in your body's neurophysiological state of safety. These ventral vagal pathways are responsible for your ability to connect and socially engage. Silence *can* lead to safety. If you're mobilized in danger, you won't be able to access your safety state. So the unrelenting noise surrounding you decreases your chances of existing in your safety state. One possible solution to this problem is to decrease the noise around you. You can control some things, like your phone, speakers, TVs, computers, and so on. Some things you cannot control, like the traffic in the background. And while you can unplug your fridge, I don't recommend it. Reducing the noise around you can help you to reconnect with your natural friend of silence. “The deepest feeling always shows itself in silence.” -Marianne Moore Silence can also lead to danger. However, silence can also be an uncomfortable experience for many, especially if stuck in a traumatized state. Silence can feel very unsafe if someone is stuck in a state of flight/fight or freeze. Instead, they often prefer noise, something for their ear to focus on to remind them they are not actually in danger. Here are examples of noises that may help traumatized individuals to feel calmer: white noise music tv on in the background ASMR These noises may help calm their defensive activation but don't solve the problem. These are aids, not solutions. The problem is defensive state activation, not silence. But silence forces this individual to feel their emotional dysregulation without the distraction and reassurance of sound to focus on. Silence may be too much for them. The problem is being stuck in a defensive state. The goal is to lower the defensive state activation. The solution is to increase safety state activation. And the tool to do so is mindfulness. Feeling Safe Through Mindfulness When we practice mindfulness, we're not just being present – we're cultivating a sense of safety and exercising the ventral vagal biological pathways of safety. Over time, the pathways can be strong enough to tolerate even high levels of defensive activation. Being mindful of defensive activation like anxiety and fear is probably too much to ask. Instead, be mindful of safety state activation when it is present. You will notice your safety state is active because you'll feel more connected to the present moment. Your breath will be easier, into your belly, and relaxed. For now, practice being mindful with sound that you find soothing. As you practice being mindful with sound, you will eventually be able to practice doing so without sound. Silent Mindfulness in Small Moments To aid you in reconnecting with silence, practice small moments of silent mindfulness. Don't challenge yourself to 10 minutes of silence. Stick with like 30 seconds. If that's tolerable, extend it if you like. Mindfulness doesn't require a meditation cushion or an hour of spare time. It can be practiced in small moments throughout your day. You can be mindful of what it's like to fold laundry, wash your hands, play with your kids, or pull weeds. All of these have experiences that you can pay more attention to. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee, taking a short walk, or simply sitting quietly for a few minutes, these moments of silence can become powerful mindfulness practices. “How much better is silence; the coffee cup, the table. How much better to sit by myself like the solitary sea-bird that opens its wings on the stake. Let me sit here for ever with bare things, this coffee cup, this knife, this fork, things in themselves, myself being myself.” -Virginia Woolf, The Waves Practical Tips for Incorporating Silence I ncorporating silence into your daily routine doesn't have to be complicated. Here are some possibilities: Start your day with five minutes of silence before reaching for your phone. Take short silent breaks throughout your day, even if it's just for a minute or two. Use movement with your mindfulness and take walks in silence. Practice mindful eating by eating your meals in silence, focusing on the taste and texture of your food with a breath in between bites. Before bed, spend a few minutes in silence, using your imagination to anchor in safety. Use noise-cancelling earbuds or headphones to dampen sound if needed. How I Use Silence Every Morning My morning routine currently involves lots of silence. Well, as long as I am up before my wife and children. I wake up by 6 am and begin my routine to prepare for work. During the school year, I'll get up at 5:30 to ensure quiet time before the kids are up and lunches must be packed. I do my morning work prep in silence. No phone usage, no screens, no music. I let things be as quiet as they naturally can be. I listen to what my body needs in the quiet. I follow the small pushes and pulls that my body experiences, even with trivial things. I drink coffee or water based on what my body is saying it needs. I sit where it feels right, like on the couch or the deck in the backyard. I read or sit quietly and reflect. I do a short meditation if it feels right. While packing my lunch or eating breakfast, I notice the small things. The textures of the english muffin, the smell of the jelly I am spreading, and the sound of the zipper of my lunch bag. I try to slow down and let every moment exist independently, each with its tiny experiential opportunities. My quiet mornings go for about 90 minutes until I leave for work. At that point, I drive to work with whatever feels right. I typically want either more silence or music. Lately, I have been listening to heavy metal on the way to work as more sympathetic energy has flavored my system. One of my Stucknaut Collective community members called this a "calm and restorative" morning routine, and I agree. “Guard well your spare moments. They are like uncut diamonds. Discard them and their value will never be known. Improve them and they will become the brightest gems in a useful life.” -Ralph Waldo Emerson Learn to be okay with silence. You know how important silence can be. But you struggle to be okay in silence or don't know how to make the most of it. In the Unstucking Academy, the coursework teaches you how, meditations and live meetups help you practice, and the small community ensures you're not alone. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > Do you trust in your power to self-regulate? Your body is compelled to self-regulate, but trauma stops this process. Do you trust that you have the innate power to self-regulate, release your trauma, and live more calmly, confidently, and connected? Read more here > Q&A Q: What is the power of silence? A: Silence is a powerful tool that offers a break from the world's constant noise and stimulation. It allows us to pause, breathe, and simply be, helping us practice mindfulness in its purest form. Q: How can noise negatively affect us? A: Constant noise can lead to a state of chronic stress and anxiety, as our bodies remain in a state of constant alert. This can be felt as stress, general unease, or even anxiety. Q: How can we incorporate silence into our daily routine? A: Incorporating silence into our daily routine can be as simple as starting the day with five minutes, taking short silent breaks throughout the day, practicing mindful eating in silence, and spending a few minutes in silence before bed. Quotes from this Blog Silence is a powerful tool. It offers a much-needed break in a world filled with constant noise and stimulation. Mindfulness is the ability to attune to the present moment. Mindfulness leads to connection with the external environment and your internal world. Incorporating silence into your daily routine doesn't have to be complicated. It's about finding small moments throughout your day to simply be. Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He hosts the Stuck Not Broken podcast and is the author of the book Trauma & the Polyvagal Paradigm . Justin is a member of the Polyvagal Institute's Editorial Board.

There's an exciting new book that delves into the depths of Polyvagal Theory, providing insights into our complex nervous systems. In this blog post, I will review "Our Polyvagal World" by Dr. Stephen Porges and Seth Porges. I am a huge Polyvagal Nerd and a member of the Polyvagal Institute's Editorial Board. I'll try to be as unbiased as possible! (Links to the book will take you to Amazon. I will get a portion of the book sale at no extra cost to you.) "Our Polyvagal World" Book - Approachable for All " Our Polyvagal World " is an approachable book that caters to many audiences. From general readers to Polyvagal Theory enthusiasts, the book offers something for everyone. The language used in the book is simple and easy to understand, making it accessible even to newcomers to the theory. Seth Porges seems to be the primary writer. His Dad, Dr. Stephen Porges, is the creator of the Polyvagal Theory and seems to have written some of the book but also acted as editor. Overall, the two strike a great balance. Key Topics in "Our Polyvagal World" Book The book covers many topics, from oxytocin to evolution to respiratory science arrhythmia, providing readers with diverse insights. Whether you are interested in understanding the impact of Polyvagal Theory on schools, prisons, or mixed states, "Our Polyvagal World" has something for you. My favorite section is the one on oxytocin. It does a great job of connecting the chemical to the Polyvagal Theory and has a beautiful little twist. Out of the entirety of this book, this is by far the most delightful, and it left me with a smile. Politically Neutral and Open: I also love and commend the authors' commitment to maintaining a politically neutral and inclusive approach. The discussion points are inviting to all readers, regardless of their political or religious leanings. They go out of their way to discuss the Polyvagal Theory and make it approachable for anyone. It's refreshing to see a book that focuses solely on knowledge and its practical application, allowing readers to apply the theory as they see fit. Areas for Improvement: While there is much to appreciate in " Our Polyvagal World ," certain aspects left me wanting more. The exploration of mixed states, in particular, felt lacking in depth. I think they left some very interesting questions open and aren't even aware that they did. In fact, I found it to be such a glaring omission that I created podcast episodes around them. Is Intimacy truly a unique mixed state or a contextual representation of stillness? View my episode on it here . Are fawn and appeasement truly mixed states or behavioral adaptations? View my episode on it here . Bewilderingly, the book even omits freeze and stillness from the now-official table of states. Freeze and Stillness are already part of the PVT, so I just don't see how both authors and their editors missed these. The book has some lovely bits and some interesting discussion points, but it also misses the point on the mixed states. The Length and Structure of "Our Polyvagal World" One aspect that can be perceived positively and negatively is the book's length. I appreciated its brevity, as it made for an easy and engaging read. However, others who prefer more in-depth content may find it lacking. The book has 203 pages. However, part of those 203 pages is an unnecessary glossary. No, seriously. It's not needed. The book is written for a beginner, so it's already very approachable. And the glossary has words that don't even appear in the book. The 203 pages also have a short epilogue and acknowledgments. So, the main book dwindles to 183 pages. I seriously think they were padding the pages to make it longer. Clarity of Voice of "Our Polyvagal World" The book is written by two authors, Seth Porges and Dr. Stephen Porges, which occasionally creates confusion about who speaks. While it's apparent that Seth took the lead in writing the book, the occasional interjections from Dr. Porges can be distracting. Clearer attribution of the author's voices would have made for a more seamless reading experience. Conclusion: In conclusion, "Our Polyvagal World" by Dr. Stephen Porges and Seth Porges is an overall enjoyable and educational read. The book provides valuable insights into Polyvagal Theory and its applications. Whether you are a newcomer to the theory or a Polyvagal nerd looking for fresh perspectives, there is something for everyone in this book. While there are areas for improvement, such as the depth of exploration in certain topics and the clarity of voice, the book still merits consideration. I bought it for $14 even though I had an advanced copy already. So yeah, I think it's worth buying, especially for $14. Do you trust in your power to self-regulate? Your body is compelled to self-regulate, but trauma stops this process. Do you trust that you have the innate power to self-regulate, release your trauma, and live more calmly, confidently, and connected? Read more here > Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He hosts the Stuck Not Broken podcast and is the author of the book Trauma & the Polyvagal Paradigm . Justin is a member of the Polyvagal Institute's Editorial Board.

The Polyvagal Theory can be challenging to understand as it is dense and highly academic. Fortunately, Deb Dana has translated the PVT language, making it accessible to everyone. Deb works closely with Dr. Steven Porges, who created the Polyvagal Theory, and is one of the co-founders of the Polyvagal Institute (where I serve on the Editorial Board). In this blog, I'll highlight and explain some of Deb Dana's significant contributions to the Polyvagal Theory. Jump to a section: the polyvagal ladder triggers and glimmers home away from home story follows state Deb Dana's Polyvagal Ladder Metaphor Deb Dana conceptualized the polyvagal ladder metaphor, which is foundational in understanding the Polyvagal Theory. This metaphor illustrates how our autonomic states are structured and the order in which they evolved. The top of this metaphorical ladder is the safe and social state, linked to the brainstem and extending to our face, neck, and heart. This evolved last. The middle rung represents our spinal cord's sympathetic flight/fight system. This state evolved second. The bottom rung symbolizes the shutdown state, associated with our gut. This state evolved first and is the oldest. This ladder demonstrates how these states are physically stacked within our bodies and their sequential nature in response to stimuli. Sequential Movement Through States The Polyvagal Ladder is a metaphor that explains how our autonomic nervous system moves through different states in a specific order. For instance, a sudden loud noise might cause someone to drop from a calm and connected state (ventral vagal safety) to a fight or flight response (sympathetic mobilization). This is not a conscious decision or a random reaction but a sequential drop triggered by external cues. This individual would reversely climb back up the ladder from sympathetic to safety. If you exist in a traumatized state, understanding the sequential nature of the ladder metaphor may help validate and normalize your past and present experiences. Therapy clients often find this concept normalizing, helping them to relieve their judgment and blame. Free resource: the Polyvagal Ladder I consistently use the ladder metaphor in my content. I actually created a Polyvagal ladder sheet for you to download and print out (see below). The Members' Center has more free resources, like Learning Hubs, and more downloads. Triggers and Glimmers from Deb Dana Deb Dana introduces the concepts of triggers and glimmers in her book "The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy." (the links to Deb's books will take you to Amazon. Purchases through these links will give me a portion of the sale at no extra cost to you.) Triggers "Triggers" are events that overwhelm the vagal brake and activate our defensive states, either mobilizing us into fight/flight mode or pushing us into dorsal vagal shutdown. This concept is particularly relevant for individuals with trauma, as triggers can be unpredictable and sometimes benign, yet they evoke strong autonomic responses. Triggers occur when the vagal brake is not able to relax, reengage, and maintain ventral vagal regulation. Triggers are a result of a neural challenge that is too big for the flexibility of the system. They bring a neuroception of danger or life-threat, and the autonomic nervous system activates a survival response. These cues of danger prompt either a sympathetic mobilization or a dorsal vagal shutdown. -Deb Dana, The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy Glimmers "Glimmers," on the other hand, are moments or cues that activate our safety state. They are micro-moments of ventral vagal activation that can shift a nervous system from survival mode to a state of autonomic regulation. Focusing on these moments can gradually strengthen the safety state and the vagal brake. The ventral vagal system guides our experience of glimmers. The neuroception of safety creates the possibility of relaxing into a moment of connection to self, to others, or to the environment. Cues of safety bring glimmers that are often sensed in micro-moments of ventral vagal activation. Glimmers can help calm a nervous system in survival mode and bring a return of autonomic regulation… Bringing attention to these small moments moves the system toward a tipping point, and multiple micro-moments may become significant enough to create an autonomic shift. -Deb Dana, The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy Home Away from Home concept from Deb Dana Deb Dana's "home away from home" concept suggests that our natural 'home' should be the ventral vagal safety state. However, many individuals find themselves stuck in other states, such as flight, fight, freeze,  appease , or fawn. Due to their predictability, these states can become familiar and somewhat comforting. The goal is gradually spending more time in the safety state, making it dominant. As you spend more time in your safety state, your vagal brake will strengthen. As your vagal brake strengthens , stuck traumatized states will soften and relieve. Deb Dana's "Story Follows State" Polyvagal Theory Concept Another significant contribution from Dana is the idea that "story follows state." This concept teaches that our autonomic nervous system's state influences our thoughts. (It also influences our sensations, impulses, emotions, and behaviors.) Trauma-trained therapists are taught that a foundation of effective work is understanding “perception is more important than reality.” Personal perception, not the actual facts of an experience, creates posttraumatic consequences. Polyvagal Theory demonstrates that even before the brain makes meaning of an incident, the autonomic nervous system has assessed the environment and initiated an adaptive survival response. Neuroception precedes perception. Story follows state.  -Deb Dana, The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy Mental health interventions often focus on changing thoughts, but the primary mover is our autonomic state. Addressing the state of our autonomic nervous system can be more effective than solely focusing on cognitive processes. However, top-down interventions can also be helpful. Learn and apply the Polyvagal Theory simply. Deb is an amazing resource to learn the Polyvagal Theory. But it's time to go beyond learning and apply your knowledge to build safety and finally get unstuck. In the Unstucking Academy, the coursework teaches you how, meditations and live meetups help you practice, and the small community ensures you're not alone. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > Q&A Q: What is the Polyvagal Ladder Metaphor, and why is it important? A: Deb Dana introduced the polyvagal ladder metaphor, which represents how our autonomic states evolve and are structured in our bodies, illustrating the sequential movement through these states. Q: How do triggers and glimmers influence our autonomic nervous system? A: Triggers activate our defensive states, leading to sympathetic fight or flight and dorsal vagal shutdown, while glimmers activate the safety state. Q: What does the concept "Story Follows State" signify in Polyvagal Theory? A: "Story Follows State," a concept highlighted by Deb Dana, signifies that our thoughts and narratives are secondary to the state of our autonomic nervous system. Quotes from this article: If you exist in a traumatized state, understanding the sequential nature of the ladder metaphor may help validate  and normalize  your past and present experiences. ...many individuals often find themselves stuck in other states like flight, fight, freeze, appease , or fawn. These states can become familiar and somewhat comforting due to their predictability. Mental health interventions often focus on changing thoughts, but the primary mover is our autonomic state. Do you trust in your power to self-regulate? Your body is compelled to self-regulate, but trauma stops this process. Do you trust that you have the innate power to self-regulate, release your trauma, and live more calmly, confidently, and connected? Read more here >

Emotional regulation involves a delicate balance between actively doing things and also allowing things to unfold naturally. It's a dance between taking charge of our emotional responses and gently letting our feelings run their course. In this blog, I'll delve into emotional regulation, exploring how the interplay of action and acceptance can lead to a more harmonious and resilient emotional life. I found a comment on one of my YouTube videos with a great question tucked within its foul-mouthed presentation. Where is this weird 'allow yourself' grammar bulls*** coming from? You don't "allow yourself" anything. That's called 'doing something'. You 'do something'. You 'act'. I've never seen a single person asking their mirror image for permission before they start crying. They just f**ing start crying. What the f*** is up with this alienating language?? This lovely comment poses something worth cognitively chewing on. How do we emotionally regulate: should we actively make ourselves experience certain emotions, or should we allow these emotions to surface? Do we summon a feeling or do we notice what is already there? And then, do we make ourselves act on it, like cry? Or do we allow ourselves to cry? Emotional Regulation = Allowing I typically frame things as "allowing." I believe we allow ourselves to experience what is already inside. I don't view emotional experiences as actions we must initiate; rather, they are natural responses we should permit ourselves to experience. I believe those emotions are already within us, whether we consciously recognize them or not. But for the emotion to be felt and acted upon, we must mindfully allow it to be present. And then, we must mindfully allow an impulse to come from the emotion, like crying. I teach this process in Unstucking Defensive States . The Impulse to Cry Crying is a great example of allowing vs doing. I don't know about you, but when I feel the urge to cry, I don't actively initiate it. I feel it. I recognize it as a signal from my body, indicating a need for emotional release. And then I allow my body to do what it is prepared to. I don't obstruct this natural process with distractions like binge-watching Netflix or substance use. I don't tell myself I'm weak and to stuff it down inside. I allow. The body has an impulse on what to do - cry. You don't force it or summon it. You allow it. Of course, you may not be. Instead, you may be numbing through doom-scrolling or judging yourself for needing to cry. Actively cry Therapy clients often tell me they were raised to think crying makes them "weak." This belief is a common cultural and familial one, passed on for generations. This belief stops the natural impulse to cry. It dismisses and disrespects the sadness, grief, and loneliness within. We do plenty of things with our conscious mind to actively stop natural, healthy emotional expression. That is, we don't allow the emotion and the expression. So, maybe instead of actively making yourself cry, you can actively stop saying things to yourself that shut down the process. Maybe you can actively tell yourself it's okay to cry. Maybe you can actively validate your emotion, normalize it, and permit yourself to have it. Polyvagal Theory and Emotional States My thinking on the question of "allow or do" comes from my understanding of the Polyvagal Theory. If you're new to the Theory, start here . Basically, the PVT says that our bodies can exist in three autonomic states. Polyvagal Theory Three Primary Bodily States Safety State : for social connection when safe Flight/Fight State : good for evasion and aggression when in danger Shutdown State : Marked by immobilization or collapse when in a life-threat. The Ideal State: Safety In the safety state, our body's defensive mechanisms are reduced, allowing us to use our resources more optimally. Our body naturally aspires to be in the safety state, as it optimizes bodily resources for "health, growth, & restoration" (Porges). ...survival mechanisms reflexively shift physiological state to support or disrupt homeostatic processes that support health, growth, and restoration. In response to threat, homeostasis is disrupted to support biobehavioural strategies of defense such as the metabolically costly fight/flight behaviours or metabolically conservative, but potentially lethal, death feigning reactions... -Porges, Autonomic state: A neurophysiological platform for feelings, emotions, and social engagement However, our conscious actions and beliefs often impede this process. Our bodies are compelled to self-regulate and will do so if uninterrupted. But we humans tend to do things like judge ourselves, doom-scroll, bully, obsess, or use substances. These actions or thoughts prevent natural self-regulation from happening. The body is compelled to self-regulate. It just needs us to allow it to do so. Yes, easier said than done. Allowing vs. Doing Allowing Emotional Expression By 'allowing', I refer to the process of letting our body's natural responses unfold without interference. This could mean stepping back from self-judgment or societal expectations that label crying a sign of weakness. Allowing is about mindfully creating space for our emotions rather than actively trying to generate them. Allowing our emotions requires the safety state to be active. When it's on, defensive emotional activation reduces. We become more curious about what we feel and can mindfully experience it with self-compassion. Doing: The Active Part While 'allowing' is key, there's also an active component. This involves purpsefully being aware of and feeling our emotions. For those who struggle with expressing emotions like crying, it helps to notice where in the body these feelings reside. Describing these sensations – their temperature, size, or shape – can facilitate the emotional process. It helps to enhance mindfulness of your emotions, like sadness. Once more mindful, the sadness can be acted upon, like through crying. But crying is typically not something we conjure or will with force. If the impulse to cry is there, we allow it. Or not. Allow your emotions and do something with them. Your emotions linger until you compassionately allow them. After allowing, you do something with them. In the Unstucking Academy, the coursework teaches you how, meditations and live meetups help you practice, and the small community ensures you're not alone. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > The Complexity of Emotional Regulation The journey of emotional regulation is more than just performing actions; it's about being attuned to our body's signals and needs. Our bodies "know" what they need better than our conscious minds do. Essentially, the more we attune to our bottom-up experiences, the more self-regulation can happen. But if we stay in our heads, nothing changes. I think there is a natural balance of allowing and doing. You can certainly do things that allow self-regulation. You can actively set up an environment that is conducive to mindfulness. You can actively notice how you feel in your body and where your emotions live. All of this doing serves to allow your body to self-regulate. Do you trust in your power to self-regulate? Your body is compelled to self-regulate, but trauma stops this process. Do you trust that you have the innate power to self-regulate, release your trauma, and live more calmly, confidently, and connected? Read more here >   Q&A: Q: According to the Polyvagal Theory, what is the ideal bodily state for emotional regulation? A: The ideal state for emotional regulation is the safety state, where the body's defensive mechanisms are reduced, allowing for optimal use of resources. With the safety state active, shutdown can become stillness, and flight/fight can become play or empowerment. Learn more about the Polyvagal Theory mixed states here . Q: How should one approach the impulse to cry from the perspective of emotional regulation? A: The impulse to cry should be approached as a natural signal from the body, indicating a need for emotional release. It's about allowing oneself to experience this emotion rather than actively initiating it. Q: What is the difference between 'allowing' and 'doing' in the context of emotional expression? A: 'Allowing' refers to letting the body's natural responses unfold without interference, while 'doing' involves actively being aware of and feeling emotions, and recognizing where these feelings reside in the body. Doing can lead to allowing. Quotes from this blog: "I don't view emotional experiences as actions we must initiate; rather, they are natural responses that we should permit ourselves to experience." "I don't know about you, but when I feel the urge to cry, I don't actively initiate it. I feel it. I recognize it as a signal from my body, indicating a need for emotional release. And then I  allow my body to do what it is prepared to." "Our bodies "know" what they need better than our conscious minds do."

I agree that mindset is important.  But  I think it's misunderstood and prioritized way too high. It's a problem, but it's not the problem . You've likely heard you must fix your mindset to make the changes you want. (And likely from some internet coach.) You've heard you must stop your "negative thinking" and "shoulding all over yourself." So, you're here to learn how to do so. But I don't think how you think is causing the problems you seek help for. You may have already started trying to change your mindset and ended up feeling frustrated and lost. You might be ready to give up. Great news —you're in the right place!  Let's make sense of mindset, where it comes from, and what you can do to change it finally! in this blog: what is mindset? what is a growth vs fixed mindset? does a growth mindset truly fix everything? the challenge of adopting a growth mindset emotional state vs mindset when do you have a growth mindset? when do you have a fixed mindset? the connection between mindset and polyvagal state how to change your Polyvagal state mindfulness to shift Polyvagal state think less about your thoughts Mindset: What is it? So, the first thing to address is mindset.  We'll start generally.  Merriam Webster  defines mindset as "a mental attitude or inclination."  Cambridge Dictionary  defines it as "a person's way of thinking and opinions." Okay, great, but that doesn't tell us much. Growth vs Fixed Mindset You've likely stumbled upon Carol Dweck's work if you've researched "mindset". While I'm unsure if she initiated the widespread interest in mindset, her name is closely associated with it. My main focus lies in the contributions Carol Dweck has made to the field of psychology, the subsequent developments, and the reasons why it remains somewhat lacking. Focusing on thoughts as the root of one's problems is not a groundbreaking concept. Dweck and proponents argue that mindset can catalyze transformation. Like many others, she believes that if you can change your thinking, your emotions and behaviors will follow. Dweck's focus on cognitions comes in the form of a " growth mindset " and a " fixed mindset ." Fixed mindset: "If you have a fixed mindset, you believe your abilities are fixed traits and therefore can't be changed. You may also believe that your talent and intelligence alone lead to success and effort is not required." - verywellmind.com Growth mindset: "On the flip side, if you have a growth mindset, you believe your talents and abilities can be developed over time through effort and persistence." - verywellmind.com From this framing, the issue lies in your mindset type, particularly a fixed mindset . If you can adopt a growth mindset, then change is possible. Buuuut... Does a growth mindset truly fix everything? Is something wrong with your business? Are you not getting the right grades in school? Can you not communicate effectively with your spouse? Do you want a life partner but can't find one? Is there some sort of emotional dysregulation you're going through that you can't get over? Well, all these things, and a lot more, can be fixed with a growth mindset. At least, that's what the mindset gurus say. If you look up these things online, you will easily find numerous articles, books, courses, videos, and all kinds of stuff that apply the growth mindset idea to these topics. And, yeah, a lot more. the Challenge of Adopting a Growth Mindset Let's do a quick exercise - identify something that you want to change in your life. Something serious. Got it? Great. Okay, you have your problem. Now you know the answer is to adopt a growth mindset to find the solution that will fix your problem. So, I'll give you a moment to go ahead and adopt that growth mindset. Go ahead, I'll wait here. Did you get it? Do you have that growth mindset yet? Hm. Maybe not. To have a growth mindset, you have to grow it. You can't just turn it off or on. Sadly, even though the problem is easily diagnosable, it is not easily fixed by simply adopting a growth mindset. You have to grow it. You can't just choose to have a growth mindset. So, how do you get or grow a growth mindset... actually, hang onto that. We'll come back to it. Emotional State vs Mindset I have another question that is more important right now. Why do some people have a growth mindset and some have a fixed mindset? Some easy answers that come to me are: mindset is based on how one is raised mindset comes from birth and never changes mindset can change but it's really hard, so one opts to keep their mindset instead of working at it chemical imbalance perhaps? mental health disorder? illness? No matter the potential reason for one's mindset, we're still left with this assertion—the w ay you think is either right or wrong. I don't find this assertion super helpful. Getting people to think differently is not easy, especially if that's your primary way of addressing someone's presenting problems. People seek therapy for many reasons. And yeah, their thinking is potentially motivating them to seek help. But it's never the only reason. One's thinking doesn't exist in a vacuum. In other words, cognitions don't pop into and out of existence on their own. What we want to change about ourselves is never just a thinking problem. There's always more to it. Emotions lead to mindset, which leads to emotions, which leads to... I find in my therapy and coaching work that thoughts stem from our emotions. At the very least, they occur alongside our emotions, and the two reinforce each other. Thinking pessimistically can come from depression, but it also reinforces the depression. Negative expectations about the future can come from anxiety, and also reinforce the anxiety. Let me switch it up again, and I want to approach this from a different angle. When do you have a growth mindset? When do you naturally have a growth mindset? There are probably moments where you already have it! You don't need to do anything in particular. It's just somehow... there. Ask yourself these growth mindset questions: When do you have positive thoughts? When are you okay with learning from failure? When do you feel more authentic? When do you need less approval from others? When are you okay with being imperfect? You probably already have moments like these. So when is that? If you don't feel that way or never feel that way, imagine what it would look like to be more likely to feel that way. I assume you feel this way or that your mindset changes, probably when you feel calm and relaxed. When you have these emotions, you're probably more open to what life brings you and more connected to your senses. When you feel calm, your failures or obstacles in life probably aren't debilitating. You're probably more likely to roll with them and learn from them. I would guess you have a growth mindset when you're feeling motivated, focused, and energized to keep moving forward, even when there is resistance and frustration. You probably have a growth mindset when you're with others you feel safe with and trust, with whom you can be vulnerable or have fun. You also probably have more of a growth mindset when playing a game and socializing. Like, if you're playing Cornhole (which I'm sure we all do) and miss a throw, as long as you're with people and having a good time, it won't be debilitating. You'll probably pick up the sandbag and try it again. And if you miss that one, which you probably will, you'll try it again. You may not realize it, but in a sense, you have a growth mindset. You're seeing these little failures like missing the hole and trying to do better the next time. The point is that there are probably contexts in your life where you already have a growth mindset or something similar to one. So, why would it be there in some contexts but not others? When do you have a fixed mindset? How about with a fixed mindset? When do you have limiting beliefs? When are you more frustrated and think you'll fail? When do you feel like there's no point in trying? When do you feel like a loser and don't believe in yourself? I'm guessing it's probably when you're more emotionally upset, not calm, or not connected to the present moment. I would guess it's probably when you're feeling more alone or rejected, and I would guess it's probably when you're feeling pressured. Your emotional state has a lot to do with whether you have a fixed or growth mindset. I don't think one has either growth or fixed. Perhaps it's a spectrum of fixed to growth. Your emotions influence your mindset on that spectrum, but the intensity of your emotions does as well. When you're mildly frustrated, you probably lean toward a growth mindset. As you get increasingly frustrated, your mindset probably slides toward fixed. But this leads to another and better question—what's causing the emotion that is causing and reinforcing one's mindset? the Connection Between Mindset and Polyvagal State We know your mindset doesn't exist on its own for no reason. It comes from your emotional state, and we know your mindset and emotions reinforce each other. Another obvious question - What's triggering your emotions to shift your mindset? Your emotions come from your Polyvagal state. (If you don't know the Polyvagal Theory, use my free Polyvagal Intro page.) Your Polyvagal state comes from your brainstem detecting safety or danger, shifting your autonomic nervous system into an appropriate state based on context. For example, when the brainstem neurocepts you're in danger, it shifts your body's state to sympathetic flight or fight. Your body prioritizes its functions for survival through evasion or aggression. In this state, your body is activated and cannot settle down and relax. Your emotions will be anxious, aggressive, irritated, or worried, among others. And your thoughts will focus on potential "dangers," like work stresses or past interactions with people. Conversely, when your brainstem neurocepts safety, it will shift your body's state accordingly. When you're in a state of safety, you will feel calm, playful, intimate, and connected. Your thoughts will be hopeful, and you'll be more focused. You will have a greater potential for a growth mindset in this state. Your mindset potential changes depending on the state of your body. What affects your Polyvagal state? So, your mindset comes from your body's state, but your state shifts based on factors from several sources: environment, interpersonal, and intrapersonal. Each of us will experience these factors differently, and how things will affect us is not always predictable. One's past influences one's current state as well. Having experienced a healthy attachment with caregivers and established healthy boundaries will likely foster a growth mindset. This can enable individuals to navigate life's challenges, maintain a positive outlook, show compassion towards themselves and others, and learn from experiences. Indeed, being raised with an emphasis on the value of effort increases the likelihood of possessing a growth mindset. Trauma & growth mindset Trauma can severely limit someone's potential for existing in a Polyvagal state of safety, which is essential for a growth mindset. Trauma isn't the events or lack of events someone went through. Instead, it's the impact of those events on their bodies. In essence, trauma is being stuck in a defensive state. Does this mean someone who is traumatized cannot or will never achieve a growth mindset? Of course not. These individuals may appreciate the importance of sustained effort and never giving up. Their recovery may be instrumental in sustaining their growth mindset and efforts. Let's come back to where we started. Change Your State to Change Your Mindset Yeah, mindset is important, of course. But in my opinion, mindset is not as important as your state . Your state is the primary mover. If we can change your state, your mindset will change. Trying to change your mindset while you're in a defensive state is likely to reinforce that state—"I knew I couldn't do it!" It's just not as simple as changing your thoughts. Those with a growth mindset already have a lot or enough access to their safety state.  When obstacles occur in their lives or if they have a failure or a mini failure, they don't sink deeply into defensive state activation. They can roll with what life throws at them because their safety state is strong enough, resulting in higher distress tolerance and a growth mindset. This individual might even be able to feel and mindfully use their defensive state activation. When anxious, angry, or stressed, they use that energy to accomplish a goal. Or, at least make progress on one. The point is that people with a growth mindset have a pretty darn good anchoring in their safety state. That's probably the most significant difference between them and someone with a fixed mindset. The growth mindset person didn't wake up with a growth mindset; it was fostered and developed along with continual safety state activation. Their capacity to tolerate distress grew on an autonomic level, and then their thoughts followed. Change your state to change your mindset You know your mindset comes from your state. Now it's time to change your state. In the Unstucking Academy, the coursework teaches you how, meditations and live meetups help you practice, and the small community ensures you're not alone. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > The problem is not a fixed mindset A fixed mindset is a problem,  but it's not  the problem.  Mindset and its accompanying thoughts are probably a tertiary problem. The primary problem is the Polvagal state. The secondary problem is the sensations and impulses from that state that haven't been felt and acted upon. When these aren't acted upon, they linger in the system. We feel them as emotions like anxiety and anger. Emotions affect our thoughts, which make up our mindset. A stuck defensive Polyvagal state is the primary problem. This leads to your mindset. How to change your Polyvagal state How do you go about changing your state, then? It's not easy, but it is possible to change your underlying autonomic state and achieve a higher level of safety. You need at least two essential ingredients to activate your safety state - literal safety passive safety cues Literal safety First, you have to have literal, actual, factual environmental safety. You have to be surrounded by a safe enough environment. If you're in a dangerous environment, it will be tough to have a growth mindset. Probably impossible. The other thing would be having actual safe people in your life versus people who are causing you harm or are directly a danger to you. Again, it is unlikely to impossible to have a growth mindset in this scenario. Passive safety cues The absence of danger does not equate to safety. It just means there is no danger. However, the absence of danger provides an opportunity to lay a foundation of safety. Introduce passive safety cues into your home to lay a foundation of safety. In my Building Safety Anchors course, I recommend picking one spot in your home to create a Passive Safety Environment (PSE). You use this space to adjust various environmental elements, like lighting, sound, and scent. When you change sensory elements of your Passive Safety Environment, try to identify what generally feels better than not. The goal is to create safety cues within your PSE that steadily trigger your safety state passively. The point is that passive safety cues are better than the absence of danger. From passive safety cueing, you can then shift to mindful safety anchoring. Mindfulness to shift Polyvagal state Mindfulness is a core piece of what I do with my clients and through my courses . Mindfulness means connecting with the present moment. In the present moment, you can feel safe, be curious about your mindset, and even shift out of a danger state. The easiest way to be mindful might be to use your senses. But don't use all of them at once. Pick the one that is the most easily accessible for you and focus on what it's telling you. When you focus on that one sense, try to slow down and experience it. Listen deeply to what it tells you. Take a breath in and let it out slowly, noticing the present-moment experience of your sense. Ask yourself, "Does what I am experiencing feel more or less like safety?" Practice this little mindfulness exercise daily. Your capacity to be mindful in other areas will increase as you do. You will become more acquainted with your safety state and notice it more often. Your safety state will strengthen, especially if you can combine mindfulness with letting yourself feel some defensive activation. When mindful like this, having a fixed mindset is difficult. When connected to the present moment, your thought potential opens up. A fixed mindset's all-or-nothing thinking erodes, giving way to a growth mindset. Think less about your thoughts I hope this little blog has helped you rethink your thinking and what helps you shift your mindset potential. I believe too much time and energy is spent changing our thoughts. I like working with other coaches in my coaching practice ; they tell me they're sick of stressing about their thoughts and getting their mindset "right." They're sick of stressing about negative thoughts, "shoulds," and fixed mindsets. There's value in awareness of thinking, sure. But there's more value to what's happening underneath your thinking - the stuff you're probably unaware of. Instead of endlessly trying to change your thinking, focus on connecting to the present moment. Then, notice your thinking and if it's changed or not. There's way more to you and each of us than our mindset. I invite you to become more curious about what else is within you. If you're enjoying this type of content, you'll love the exclusive Polyvagal-informed goodies and community within the Stuck Not Broken: Total Access Membership . Inside, you'll get access to courses designed to help you get unstuck and join others on a similar journey as you. Q&A from this Blog: 1. Why isn’t mindset the root of the problem? Mindset is often seen as the primary factor driving personal success, but it’s more of a secondary or even tertiary issue. Our emotional and physical states, driven by our autonomic nervous system, shape our mindset. If you're stuck in a defensive state, it’s much harder to simply change your mindset. The real work is in shifting your state, which then opens up the potential for mindset change. 2. Can I adopt a growth mindset immediately? No, adopting a growth mindset isn’t something that happens instantly. It’s not a switch you can flip. You develop a growth mindset over time by first focusing on your emotional and physical safety, which creates the foundation for it to naturally develop. 3. How does mindfulness help shift mindset? Mindfulness helps by connecting you to the present moment and allowing you to access your Polyvagal state of safety and connection. When you’re mindful, it’s easier to notice and shift out of a defensive state, which can then lead to a more open, growth-oriented mindset. Focusing less on thoughts and more on your present-moment sensations is key. 3 Quotes from this Blog: To have a growth mindset, you have to grow it. You can't just turn it off or on. Sadly, even though the problem is easily diagnosable, it is not easily fixed by simply adopting a growth mindset. The absence of danger does not equate to safety. It just means there is no danger. However, the absence of danger provides an opportunity to lay a foundation of safety. There's way more to you and each of us than our mindset. I invite you to become more curious about what else is within you. Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Coach who specializes in trauma relief. He hosts the  Stuck Not Broken podcast , is the author of  Stuck Not Broken: Book 1,  and is a Polyvagal Institute's Editorial Board member. He specializes in treating trauma and helping individuals get "unstuck" from their defensive states.

When you’re navigating trauma recovery or striving for general wellness, feeling overwhelmed is common. With numerous techniques, practices, and self-help strategies available, how do you know where to focus? I’m here to help simplify and organize your efforts by categorizing them into four key pathways or "buckets." Each bucket serves a unique purpose on your journey toward living more calmly, confidently, and connected. Let’s dive into these four mental wellness buckets and explore how they can guide your efforts. Bucket 1: Foundational Health Basics To start, you must address the essentials—your baseline. Without these foundational practices, other efforts may fall short. Sleep: Are you getting enough rest? Sleep is critical for both physical and emotional resilience. Nutrition: Aim for “good enough”—balanced meals rich in nutrients. Avoid junk food or soda, but don’t strive for perfection. Hydration: Drink plenty of water. Movement: You don't need a vigorous fitness regimen; regular movement—like walking, stretching, or light exercise—can be beneficial. These basics aren't glamorous, but they are essential. If your foundation is weak, other recovery efforts won’t be effective. Bucket 2: Coping Mechanisms Coping mechanisms often mark the beginning of the journey, commonly during turbulent times. These tools help reduce immediate distress, be it anxiety, depression, or anger. Coping Examples: Counting backwards to ease anxiety. Using fidget tools for grounding. Applying "hacks," such as cold showers or deep breathing exercises. While coping strategies are valuable, it’s crucial to understand their limitations. These techniques might provide temporary relief but won't address the root causes of your emotions. Coping is merely a stepping stone, not the destination. Bucket 3: Practicing Safety Safety forms the cornerstone of genuine healing. It involves creating and nurturing a sense of calm, connection, and presence in your daily life. Questions to Reflect On: What makes me feel safe? Is it a warm cup of tea, the sound of rain, or feeling your pet’s fur? How do I connect with myself? Practice self-compassion and embrace your experiences, even the difficult ones. How do I connect with others and my environment? Savor small moments, such as hugging a loved one or enjoying the aroma of fresh coffee. Practicing safety strengthens your ventral vagal pathways, promoting calm and connection. Over time, it diminishes the need for constant coping, making life more manageable. Bucket 4: Feeling and Resolving Stuck Defensive States The final mental wellness bucket focuses on addressing the root causes of feeling stuck—whether it’s flight, fight, shutdown, or freeze responses. This process requires deep inner work and builds upon the stability from Buckets 1 and 3. Steps for Engaging with Stuck Emotions: Allow yourself to feel emotions like fear, anger, or numbness without judgment. Practice “pendulation”—touch on difficult feelings briefly, then return to your sense of safety (from Bucket 3). Gradually increase your capacity to confront challenging emotions while maintaining grounding. This bucket holds the potential for the most transformation. It helps release stuck emotional states, deepens your connections with yourself and others, and moves you closer to emotional freedom. Build Safety & Relieve Stuck Defense You can build your safety state (Bucket 2) and relieve your stuck defense (Bucket 3) inside the Unstucking Academy. Justin's coursework teaches you, his meditations and live meetups help you practice, and the small community ensures you're not alone. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > Combining the Mental Wellness Buckets Each bucket serves a distinct purpose, yet they work synergistically in a cycle of healing and growth: Start with the basics : Build your foundation with proper sleep, nutrition, hydration, and movement. Use coping tools when needed : These tools help you navigate overwhelming moments. Practice safety daily : Create a sense of calm and connection through micro-moments. Engage with stuck emotions : When ready, explore your deeper feelings. Homework Assignment Take stock of your current efforts. Which pathway do they align with? What could you add or improve? For example: Drinking water → Pathway 1. Using a fidget toy → Pathway 2. Hugging a loved one → Pathway 3. Journaling about a difficult memory → Pathway 4. Free Resource: The Four Wellness Buckets To assist you on this journey, I’ve created a one-page guide summarizing these pathways. Many more resources and a free course are available in the members center . Remember, recovery is a process. Small, consistent efforts can lead to meaningful change. Recommended Blogs: 3 Stages of Trauma Healing How to Start Getting Unstuck Recommended Courses: Building Safety Anchors : This course helps you identify, practice, and strengthen your sense of safety. BSA focuses entirely on Bucket 2 and prepares you for Bucket 3. Unstucking Defensive States : This course strikes a balance between safety and defense, helping alleviate your stuck defensive state. You will learn and practice essential skills like pendulation, titration, and Justin's A->W->E Method. Author Bio Justin Sunseri is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He hosts the  Stuck Not Broken podcast , is the author of  Stuck Not Broken: Book 1 , and serves on the Editorial Board of the Polyvagal Institute. Justin specializes in treating trauma and helping individuals get "unstuck" from their defensive states.

You've probably spent a lot of time on trying to get unstuck... with mixed results. Maybe you've done therapy, gone on retreats, been to webinars, or joined a Facebook group (or two or three) and on and on. You're looking for the thing that gets you unstuck - the hack, the rewiring, the reset, the [fill in the blank]. Tell me I'm wrong. But there is no quick fix. It's usually a slow process. And there is no hack. Unstucking will probably require a combination of things. Eva's unstucking success story focuses on exactly that. She was able to raise her Safety Baseline from 2/10 to 7/10 in about six months through a combination of things, many of which were small and practical for anyone. Eva shares her unstucking success story. Jump to a section: safety is the priority 3 tips to understanding your inner world 6 tips for somatic and mindful connection 3 tips for building your support system 5 tips for consistent and easy habits and tools Nervous System Regulation Tip 0: Safety is the priority Eva's 17 nervous system regulation tips helped her come out of shutdown, but I think they're great for any stuck defensive state. No matter what your stuck defensive state is, safety is required to come out of it. You need a strong foundation of safety to get unstuck. As you practice feeling safe, you build the strength of your ventral vagal safety pathways from your brainstem. As these pathways strengthen, your body's potential to self-regulate out of stuck defense increases. Many of Eva's tips directly involve safety practices in some way. Nervous System Regulation Tips: Understanding Your Inner Landscape Before we dive into specific actions you can take in the external world, there's a lot of good you can do by starting within. Understanding your inner landscape – how your nervous system responds and why – is foundational to unlocking lasting change. None of these pieces get you unstuck on their own. But by learning to identify what's happening inside you, understanding the science behind it, and shifting your perspective on challenges, you build the essential groundwork for moving from a state of defense to one of genuine safety and regulation. Name Your State:  The first powerful step is often simple: acknowledge and name the defensive state you're in (like flight, fight, or shutdown). Like Eva said about herself, understanding that your body isn't broken or lazy, but is actually trying to protect you, can be a game-changer. Learn how to easily identify your Polyvagal state > Learn the "Why" (Polyvagal Theory):  Educate yourself on the science of safety and connection, like the Polyvagal Theory. Knowing why  your body responds the way it does can demystify your experience and shift your focus from self-blame to building safety. Learn the Polyvagal Theory basics for free > Reframe Setbacks:  Understand that setbacks are signals, not failures. They are part of the healing journey, prompting you to return to your toolkit with kindness and compassion, rather than proof that you've failed. Like any change, there are moments of feeling like you're progressing, but also feeling like you're regressing. Learn how to validate and normalize your experiences > Nervous System Regulation Tips: Somatic & Mindful Engagement Once you've begun to understand the 'what' and 'why' of your nervous system's responses, the next step is to gently engage with your body and your present-moment experience . These tips focus on practical, body-centered techniques that bypass the often-overwhelming "story" and connect directly with your physical sensations and emotions. Create small, mindful moments of connection and safety. By learning to listen to your body, engage your senses, and permit your feelings from a place of growing safety, you start to build a new relationship with your inner world – one that is more grounded, present, and regulated. Start Small with Somatic Exercises:  Begin with brief, gentle somatic practices. Think orienting to your room, using soft eye gazes, or practicing longer, calming exhales. These don't require huge effort but can make a difference. Body First, Story Later:  Your direct path to safety often lies in your physical experience. Instead of trying to think  your way out, find one small thing that makes your body feel safe or more pleasant – a soft blanket, a warm cup of tea, the presence of a pet. Let your nervous system have that moment. Start with your environment and passive safety cues > Gentle Movement:  If you're in shutdown like Eva was, intense exercise feels overwhelming. Instead of holding yourself to that standard, try gentle movement. A short, 5-10 minute Tai Chi session (even via YouTube) can be incredibly grounding and accessible, especially when emerging from shutdown. Wiggling your toes or flexing/releasing your muscles can be helpful, too. Start small and gently to help encourage mobility back into your system. Connect Through Your Senses:  Mindfully connect with one of your senses for just 30 seconds or less. Fully attend to the experience – the scent of an orange, the texture of a leaf, the sound of quiet music. Notice how it affects your breathing and muscle tension. Repeat daily. This helps you practice connecting to the present moment. Permit Your Emotions:  Instead of trying to banish difficult feelings, learn to permit them. As a first step, try to visualize them, perhaps as something you can carry with you (like in your pocket), allowing them to be present without overwhelming you as you engage in safety practices. Invite these emotions to be with you while you also do something else. Mindfully Experience Feelings (from Safety):  As you build safety, progress to mindfully connecting with your non-safety feelings directly. This makes the emotions more manageable and even opens the potential for deeper unstucking and nervous system regulation. Self-regulation and safety > Build your small self-regulation habits today. Many of Eva's tips came from the small mindfulness challenges within the Unstucking Academy. Students get ideas on how to build their mindful connection with themselves, others, and their world through the Daily Growth Hub. Start building your safety state today through these small mindfulness practices, take courses from Justin, and connect with others on the same journey as you. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > Nervous System Regulation Tips: Buildin g Your Support System While the journey to nervous system regulation is deeply personal, it's not a path meant to be walked entirely alone. Our biology is wired for connection, and fostering supportive relationships can be a powerful catalyst for healing and growth. These tips explore how intentionally building and engaging with a support system – whether through community, professional guidance, or trusted personal connections – can provide the co-regulation, understanding, and encouragement needed to navigate the challenges of getting unstuck and cultivating a deeper sense of safety. Engage with Community:  Share your journey and learn from others who understand. Being part of a supportive community can make you feel less alone, normalize your experiences, and inspire new ideas for your healing. Learn about the Unstucking Academy > Seek Professional Guidance:  Consider working with a trauma-informed therapist who understands somatic approaches and the Polyvagal Theory. Their expertise can be invaluable. Learn about working with Justin > Practice Co-Regulation:  Enlist a trusted friend to practice co-regulation. This could be as simple as walking in nature together, sharing stories, and having someone gently guide you back to a sense of safety if you start to feel dysregulated. Mindfully connect with your pet or even share a smile with the clerk at your local supermarket. Nervous System Regulation Tips: Consistent Habits & Tools Understanding your nervous system, engaging somatically, and building support are all vital pieces of the puzzle. However, the real magic happens when these insights and practices are woven into the fabric of your daily life. Eva's final tips and perhaps the most impactful are dedicated to cultivating the consistent habits and utilizing the practical tools that transform occasional efforts into a sustainable path toward greater regulation and well-being. She recommends creating a reliable toolkit and daily rhythms that reinforce safety, deepen your self-awareness, and support your ongoing journey of getting unstuck. Take Immediate Micro-Actions:  Don't wait for the "perfect" moment. Start with tiny, actionable steps. Build a toolkit of these "micro-practices" that you can turn to daily to access more of yourself. Yes, 30 seconds of mindfulness every day can help! Journal Your States:  Shift your journaling focus from just moods to tracking your Polyvagal states and your perceived level of safety (e.g., on a 0-10 scale). Doing this consistently, even multiple times a day, can reveal progress and patterns. Read Validating Material:  Explore books and resources that resonate with your experience and offer further understanding of trauma and healing (e.g., "The Body Keeps the Score," "Anchored"). Learn about Justin's books > Establish Daily Safety Rituals:  Create consistent daily rituals that remind your nervous system it's safe. This could include your gentle movement practice, dedicated time in nature, and gratitude or compassion journaling. Curate Your Content:  Be mindful of the information and media you consume. Avoid over-consuming triggering content and ensure you're balancing it with supportive and calming inputs. Eva spent time in her closet with Justin's podcast > Your Path Forward Increasing your safety baseline is a journey of dedication, one small step at a time. It’s about consistent practice, self-compassion, and building a toolkit that works for you . Like Eva, who moved from a consistent 2/10 in safety to a 7/10, you too can cultivate a greater sense of calm, connection, and presence in your life. Don't feel you have to tackle all of these at once. Pick one; just one small thing from this list that feels manageable and start there. You have the capacity to begin, and every step, no matter how small, is progress on your path to feeling less stuck and more authentically you. Q&A What is Eva's first nervous system regulation tip? Eva's first tip is to acknowledge and name the defensive state you're in, such as flight, fight, or shutdown. Understanding that your body isn't broken or lazy, but is actually trying to protect you, can be a game-changer. How can one start engaging with their body and present-moment experience? Begin with brief, gentle somatic practices like orienting to your room, using soft eye gazes, or practicing longer, calming exhales. These small efforts can make a significant difference in connecting with your physical sensations and emotions. What role does community play in the journey to nervous system regulation? Engaging with a supportive community can make you feel less alone, normalize your experiences, and inspire new ideas for your healing. Sharing your journey and learning from others who understand can be a powerful catalyst for growth. The Unstucking Academy is a small group of people each working on getting unstuck through Justin's coursework and live meetups. Quotes from this Blog: You need a strong foundation of safety to get unstuck. As you practice feeling safe, you build the strength of your ventral vagal safety pathways from your brainstem. Understanding your inner landscape – how your nervous system responds and why – is foundational to unlocking lasting change. Our biology is wired for connection, and fostering supportive relationships can be a powerful catalyst for healing and growth. Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He hosts the Stuck Not Broken podcast  and authored the Stuck Not Broken book series . Justin is passionate about the Polyvagal Theory and proudly serves on the Polyvagal Institute 's Editorial Board. He specializes in treating trauma and helps individuals get "unstuck" from their defensive states.

You've learned the basics of Polyvagal Theory – how your nervous system shifts between states of safety, fight/flight, and shutdown. But the big question often remains: Now what?  How do you actively cultivate more safety in your daily life? In a previous discussion (or Tip #1, if you're following the series!), we looked at identifying your state. Now, let's take the next practical step: increasing passive safety cues  in your environment . This blog article is based on the Stuck Not Broken episode above. This isn't about complicated "hacks" or forcing yourself to feel safe. It's about gently signaling to the deepest part of your brain that you are, in fact, okay. By the end of this article, you'll understand: Why your brainstem (not just your vagus nerve) is key to feeling safe > What passive safety cues are and how they work "outside-in" > Simple, actionable ways to adjust your environment today  to support your nervous system > Safety Starts Deeper Than You Think: Meet Your Brainstem We all want to experience more of that calm, connected safety state. But how do we actually get  there, especially when anxiety or shutdown feels overwhelming? The answer lies in cueing safety – not just telling yourself "I'm safe," but sending signals your brainstem  understands. You might consciously know you're not in immediate danger, but if your body is tense, your heart is racing, or you feel numb, the rest of your system hasn't gotten the message. Why the brainstem? It's the central hub for Polyvagal Theory. It's where signals from your body and the rest of your brain converge, and it makes the call on shifting your autonomic state. It's the brainstem that stays stuck in defensive states, continually keeping the body alert or collapsed. So, for a moment (or more!), forget the social media "vagus nerve stimulation" techniques. The most fundamental way to leverage Polyvagal Theory is simple: increase the cues of safety your brainstem receives.  Give it more safety signals, and it will naturally begin shifting your state away from defense. Does this instantly resolve deep-seated trauma? No. But consistently feeding your brainstem safety cues builds a crucial foundation. It increases your capacity for safety, giving you the platform needed to eventually process stuck defensive states, if that's your goal. Your brainstem receives safety signals from three main sources: Top-Down:  From the rest of the brain (e.g., memory, imagination, learning new non-judgmental information like Polyvagal Theory). Bottom-Up:  From the body (e.g., gentle movement, singing, dancing). Outside-In:  From the external world around you, taken in through your senses. We're focusing on that third category: Outside-In , specifically passive safety cues . Harnessing Your Environment: Pas sive Sa fety Cues Passive safety cues are elements in your external environment that signal safety to your brainstem without you needing to do anything actively . They work subtly in the background. The challenge? We can't control much of the outside world – the noise at the grocery store, the crowded lines, the unpredictable weather. But we do  have significant control over our personal spaces: our homes, our rooms, even just a corner of a room. This is where we can intentionally cultivate passive safety. You might not be able to bring the actual beach or forest inside (though wouldn't that be nice?), but you can introduce elements that remind  your nervous system of those safe-feeling places. The goal isn't a magazine-perfect home. It's about making small, intentional adjustments that nudge your system towards feeling safer today than yesterday. Let's focus on creating a Passive Safety Environment  – one dedicated area, maybe just a chair or a small corner, where you intentionally layer these cues. Start small. Here are three simple ways to increase passive safety cues in your chosen space: 1. Scent: Th e Invisible Signal Smell is a powerful, direct route to the brainstem. You likely already have something you can use: Candles/Diffusers:  Do you have a favorite scent? Maybe something calming like lavender, or something evocative of a happy memory? (I recently picked up a coconut-scented candle on a trip to Hawaii, and that scent instantly brings a sense of ease to me.) Light it or diffuse it in your space. Fresh Air:  Simply opening a window for a while can clear the air, creating a "blank slate." If the weather allows, a soft breeze and natural sunlight add even more layers of passive safety. Find a scent that feels good to your system right now . Once it's there, it works passively in the background. 2. Lighting: Settin g the Mood for Safety Lighting dramatically affects how we feel in a space. Again, start free: Natural Light:  Do you have curtains or blinds? If you tend towards shutdown, you might prefer darkness, which can feel protective. But that's not necessarily safety . See if your system is ready for a tiny bit more light – maybe crack the curtains open slightly. As you feel safer, you might open them more. Listen to your body's response. Artificial Light:  Avoid harsh overhead lighting if possible. Can you use a small lamp instead? If it's too bright, can you dim it, add a shade, or (carefully!) cover it with something heat-resistant (safety first – no fires!). Natural light is often best, but adjustable artificial light is great, too. Smart Bulbs:  If it's within your budget, smart bulbs offer fantastic control over brightness and even color temperature. As evening approaches, you can set them to create a cozy, dim ambiance automatically. 3. Physical Sp ace: Room to Breathe The physical arrangement and feel of your space matter: Enough Room:  Do you have adequate space to sit, stand, or move comfortably without feeling cramped? Consider what feels right for your  body in your passive safety environment. Think about how much space helps you breathe a little easier. Tidiness & Decluttering:  Is your chosen space relatively clear? Or is it cluttered with papers, cords, old coffee cups, or piles of stuff you mean to get to? Clutter can subtly signal chaos or overwhelm to the nervous system. Can you clear your desk? Tidy the area around your chair? Put away stray items? Even a small amount of tidying can make a difference. Take One Sm all Step Today Don't aim for perfection. It's about laying a foundation of safety, one small, sustainable step at a time. Minor changes to your Passive Safety Environment create a space you can return to, a place to breathe easier, calm down, and maybe even smile. From that foundation, exploring other feelings becomes more possible. That's how you get unstuck. So, what's one thing you can adjust in your chosen space today? Light that candle? Open the curtains a crack? Clear one small pile of clutter? Hide some messy cords? Wipe down a dusty surface? Turn on a soft lamp? Pick just one. Make it happen. Tomorrow, you can build on it if you feel ready. Small steps, consistently taken, create significant change. The Unstucking Academy If you're new to the Polyvagal Theory, looking to deepen your learning, and want to connect with others, then the Foundations Membership is just for you . For only $10/month, you can learn through two courses, join Justin and others in a monthly Q&A, participate in Daily Growth challenges, and discuss with others in the forum. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > Q&A Does simply changing my environment instantly resolve trauma? No, adjusting your environment with passive safety cues doesn't instantly resolve deep trauma on its own. However, consistently feeding your brainstem these safety signals builds a crucial foundation. It increases your capacity for safety, giving you the platform needed to eventually process stuck defensive states, if that's your goal. What exactly are "passive safety cues" and how are they different from other safety practices or cues? Passive safety cues are elements in your external environment, like calming scents, soft lighting, or spaciousness, that signal safety to your brainstem without you needing to actively  do  anything. They work subtly in the background ('outside-in'), unlike active practices like gentle movement or conscious breathing exercises ('bottom-up') or cognitive reframing ('top-down'). What if I don't have much control over my environment? Focus on the small areas you do  have control over. Creating a 'Passive Safety Environment' in just one corner, around your specific chair, or on your desk can make a difference. Start with simple adjustments in that dedicated space, like using a pleasant scent (if appropriate for the setting), adjusting a small desk lamp, or keeping that immediate area tidy and decluttered. Is there a place for me to go to learn more about the Polyvagal Theory and connect with others? Yes! The Foundations Membership in the Unstucking Academy is the perfect place. For only $10/month, you can learn through two courses, join Justin and others in a monthly Q&A, participate in Daily Growth challenges, and discuss with others in the forum. Quotes from this Blog: The most fundamental way to leverage Polyvagal Theory is simple: increase the cues of safety your brainstem receives. Give it more safety signals, and it will naturally begin shifting your state away from defense. This isn't about complicated 'hacks' or forcing yourself to feel safe. It's about gently signaling to the deepest part of your brain that you are, in fact, okay . Don't aim for perfection. It's about laying a foundation of safety, one small, sustainable step at a time.   Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He hosts the Stuck Not Broken podcast  and authored the Stuck Not Broken book series . Justin is passionate about the Polyvagal Theory and proudly serves on the Polyvagal Institute 's Editorial Board. He specializes in treating trauma and helps individuals get "unstuck" from their defensive states.

Have you ever felt like you've exhausted every avenue in your quest for relief from anxiety, depression, fear, or panic? What if there were a gentle way to guide your body toward safety using something as fundamental as sound? I interviewed Dr. Stephen Porges and Karen Onderko, deeply discussing the Safe and Sound Protocol - what is it? Who's it for? What's the evidence? And what about the skepticism about it? Stephen Porges and Karen Onderko have co-authored a new book called Safe and Sound. You can purchase a copy here . (Please note that if you purchase through that link, I will receive a portion of the sale at no extra cost to you.) If you like, you can watch the book review first . Skip to a section: what is the safe and sound protocol? what is the evidence for SSP? what is the music of SSP? neural exercises and building safety state strength trauma narratives and SSP ventral vagal safety can lead to defense who is SSP form? autism and SSP co-regulation and SSP skepticism of SSP is SSP a cure-all? What is the Safe and Sound Protocol? Karen: The Safe and Sound Protocol, and we call it SSP, is a evidence-based and non-invasive  therapy that involves listening to music that has been filtered to prioritize the frequencies of human voice.  So this auditory input allows our nervous system to be receptive to cues of safety and to downregulate defense.  So voice is such a sound in particular, but voice, sound generally, but voice in particular is just salient, sensory input. And as humans, we're so driven to connect and our voices are such an important, um, vehicle for that connection.  So, um, using the auditory system to, um, to access safety in the nervous system was the way that Dr. Porges, uh, chose to create a, a therapy.   Justin: So it's all about sound and how that impacts safety. You mentioned that there's, or in the book it mentions that there is three different versions of SSP or three different filtration pathways. What does that mean?  Karen: SSP has three pathways, and they relate to how the music, the underlying music is filtered.  The original SSP-SSP Core is the first of those frequency filtration pathways, and it involves, all of them involve five hours of  listening to music. Though it doesn't take five hours to complete SSP, it take, it can take months to complete SSP, uh, but the point is that throughout those five hours of listening, the music is the filtration of the music shifts. So, at the very beginning, in hour one, at the be- you know, early stages of your listening- you're really just receiving distilled, uh, cues of safety in the frequency range that  focuses on, on the human voice in particular a mother's voice, a mother's lullaby. You know, those sounds that we, we hear when we're first, well, when we're in utero and when we're first born, that, uh, lead to us  feeling welcomed and loved and embraced in the world. That sort of, um, biological, uh, exp expectancy to come into the world in a welcoming way. So those are  the first sounds that we hear. And hopefully we hear them, not, not everybody does, and this, if they don't. This is a really nice, uh, substitute. What is the evidence for the Safe and Sound Protocol? Karen: The evidence-  and there are, uh, in the book we cite at least six different studies, and another study has just gotten funded by the Department of Defense, which we can talk about later. But, uh, the evidence, uh, shows that SSP can, um decrease auditory hypersensitivities, decrease sensory sensitivities generally, uh,  increase calm feelings, uh, reduce anxiety, reduce depression, um, enhance sleep. And what am I forgetting, Steve? Dr. Porges: Well, um, it changes autonomic tone,  but that was early research and now there's more will be coming out. So, uh, Justin, in the beginning it was really just my own research, but for the past, let's say decade, it's been outta my hands. And the community is now doing research including a large contract or grant with the Department of Defense. And people have used it and mixed it within clinical work, as you know, but now they're documenting how it accelerates intervention strategies or outcomes.   Justin: Tell us a little bit more about that. So I know that it, and we'll, we will get into this, it has lots of potential benefits and I really wanna touch upon that later on.   So it's, is it just someone who's a provider saying, "Hey, it helped," or is there, are we talking about randomized controlled- Dr. Porges: Yeah, let, let, let  me jump in and also bring you back a step and say, there's two different types of evidence.   📍 There's evidence on the theoretical model and the neurophysiology that documents what this is supposed to do. And then there's a sense validation of what it is doing. And the validation for what it's doing is coming from controlled studies. Like- so it's a laboratory, like some of the work was laboratory, but some of it's actually controlled clinical studies, uh, within people's clinics and institutions. Um, and there's also of course, case histories and that's the other, uh, what Karen and I call real life experiences.  And you start collecting, let's say a few hundred of those and you start saying, well, something's happening here, especially if the symptom clusters start to match the features of what the laboratory research is showing. Justin: Gotcha. So it's not just a bunch of people who are passionate about this saying, "Wow, this is curing everything." This is, we're, there's also some, you know, white coat  laboratory stuff going on. Dr. Porges: there, there's more than that as I often say, is everything does something. You know, build the expectation, you'll get the effect. And that's not necessarily wrong because the human interaction, connectedness supports body changes and that's fine. But what we're talking about is literally- visualize a compass. We know what this does. So we're really targeting the symptom changes based upon the theoretical model. And so what you start seeing is this, uh,  engagement in what I call the ventral vagal complex and the cluster of features that come from that spontaneous engagement, hypersensitivities on multiple dimensions, which was almost a sur I would say, a positive surprise for me 'cause auditory was certainly, but then it became  visual as well. And ingested people are now eating more different foods, literally, eating drops down. So the model is really being expressed in the clinical feedback from the different, uh, I would say portals of research where we have laboratory, which is gonna be more targeted towards randomized controls. We have it researched now with inter- interbedding, interweaving it into clinical treatment versus standard treatment. And we see, uh, basically trajectory changes. And then you have in the sense, uh, the self-reported clinical observations, uh, basically, uh,  coming from both the, uh, Unyte dashboard where they're doing the assessments and other forms of people collecting data.  What is the Music of the Safe and Sound Protocol? Justin: Obviously music's a big part of this. What is the music, what are people listening to? You've mentioned, um, filtration and distillation, but if I put headphones on or earbuds in with and listening to SSP,  what am I gonna hear? Karen: Well, you are gonna, you are gonna decide what you wanna hear, and there are five  different choices, selections of the underlying music that you can select. There's a classical, uh, selection. There's a, um, music from the seventies or so. Uh, there's a children's playlist of, you know, kids' songs and, you know, songs from movies that they know. There is a, uh, groove playlist that is instrumental.   Justin: What, so what music would not fit into SSP like this? This type of genre absolutely does not fit into what we're looking for? Karen: I mean, it's so personal,  isn't it? Like what kind of music, uh, affects state, but I would say like rap music or heavy metal music is probably not what you want to have as your underlying. Dr. Porges: I'm going to give you, uh,  so think of music literally as the vehicle that's conveying the stimulus or the challenge. So ballads and melodic music, uh, and even  classical music, uh, you can modulate, uh, filter the music to, in a sense, signal this notion of engagement and disengagement in a sense, it's the voice of- a prosodic voice, uh, a mo- a mother's voice with intonation. Well, in classical music, it's really violins and flutes and clarinets. And again, in songs, there's always the lead singer and the ballad in the modulation. But- given-  that being said, when I was actually developing it in the laboratory, I had, uh, literally families with kids who said they wanted to, uh, they didn't wanna listen to this, uh, Disney type music. They want to listen to N Sync- which  is getting pretty close to, uh, grading sounds in my ear. And I said, fine, we will process your, your, your CD. And it was effective. Now point is that you can get these frequency modulations, uh, off of most music. You can do that. But if you keep the music, the natural form of the music in the range of a mother's voice, it's going to be more effective. So your question is a great question,  but it shouldn't be meant that you can't get effects. The issue is when you, when we develop the SSP, it was really leveraging what we knew to optimize the effectiveness of it. Justin: I am guessing that  some types of music or pieces or genres are gonna naturally gravitate more toward the prosody, the coagulation aspect of it, and you're enhancing that versus heavy metal and rap, which are more mobilizing, but toward deeper, um, mo uh, flight fight kind of activation. Dr. Porges: Yeah, if you looked  at the acoustic features of the music, it would give you real hints. And if you knew what like the acoustic features of a prosodic effective mother is, the answer becomes in front of your eyes. Now, you start understanding that, "Yeah, why do I like that music?" Because it does modulate within that frequency data. It pulls  me in. And so when you learn the lesson or the rules, you select the music that you can work with the, the easiest. Justin: So it is with music, I tend  to feel like we, we, we are pulled toward what speaks to our state, uh, sort of matches it. So I like heavy metal music a, a lot. Uh, but there's also times where I really like more folksy calm, and there's other times where I just want silence. There's other times where I want more somber, you know, more that speaks to my  shutdown state. So what, the music you're describing, it sounds like it doesn't really match the state. It's more like there's an intention, there's a goal to self-regulate. Dr. Porges: Okay. Now, um, I'm looking at you, listening to you, and I realize there are people who don't wanna go into a calm social engagement state, and their life is really all about staying mobilized, energetic,  and, and active. They may use the word engagement, but not really in a reciprocal level. They're, they're doing that. And they tend to develop strategies to keep in that state. Now, when a child, and this is really where this whole, uh, I would say intervention came from, which children don't, it's not, so, it's not that they're selecting to be out of tune. They're basically due to  something in their history. They're-, they're in a sense outta tune. So they don't have enough experience to say, I want elect to be calm. So what we're saying is we can, in a sense, allow them to sample that experience. Justin: Gotcha. So the music  that you're gonna, that one would listen to, it sounds like it's repurposed commercial music that's been out there already. It's not like you guys are in the, you know, you're, you're creating your own music and playing the violins and singing and whatnot. You're repurposing. Dr. Porges: Some of the music for that's on the platform has been composed, uh, for them. Uh, but the, the bit is, so  if we were to step back and say, what type of music would you work with? And, uh, the issue is melodic, prosodic. For me, it's the history of folk music. It's like the Chieftains and Irish music. It's melodic, it's narrative, it's storytelling, it's very  engaging. Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell- but that's my, I'm, I'm dating myself, but what it is, is it, the words were less important than how they were being projected. Justin: So what do you  do with the words of the music? Because there's narratives within these pieces, right? So what happens to that? Dr. Porges: That's the cultural aspect. That's  where people want certain playlists, and that's, that's actually a business set of decisions. So what would I do with it? I would,  my own- Karen has heard me say this before- I think everyone should literally choose their own playlist. I think it should be totally individualized, culturally, and totally individualized, and let the processing of the music that they like, lead them into the state of engagement. Justin: So when  someone, um, listens to the music, what should they expect? Are there, is it all safety all the time and bliss or other things?  Dr. Porges: Safety is not a constant state. Safety is part of a range of engagement, disengagement, and re-engagement, as we call that co-regulation. But  the body is like saying, "Oh, I'm coming towards something and then I am, in a sense, feeling a loss and I want to come back." So it's not a constant state, it's a neural exercise. And so SSP was developed to be a neural exercise of that whole ventral vagal complex. So it can't be a steady, uh, frequency band has to be modulated. Our whole body responds to changes in stimulation. If we live in a constant stimulation, we're no longer really alive or functioning. Karen: But we were talking about how, um, the music changes over the total five hours of listening that is, you know, laid out for someone. And at the very beginning there is, there are longer phases where you're hearing more of the, you know, the, the, the frequency range of a mother's voice, a mother's lullaby. And so, people, some people are feeling something,  feeling safety or, or focusing on that range of frequencies for the first time. And it's actually quite profound. Um, kids have given their parents their first hugs after hearing this music. And it's, it's very a visceral experience. So your body goes along with the music feeling the sense of safety  and openness at certain points. And then sometimes those frequencies go away. And so you do experience something of a loss. And when Steve talks about a neural exercise, it's that. We're, we're practicing traveling between states. We have an anchor now in, in safety and what feel, what that feels like. So we have sort of a signpost for getting back there. And the more we shift in and out of that state, we're really practicing resilience and balance. And even the pathways are  becoming myelinated. Uh, so that. We can travel those pathways more easily. Safe and Sound Protocol and Neuroplasticity Justin: Karen, what does that mean? "The pathways are becoming myelinated." Karen: So the, um, pathways in our brains that, uh, that allow us to experience emotions and thoughts and feelings and behaviors, um, are neuroplastic and we can  become in a habit of having, for instance, anxiety and we can get stuck, stuck, not broken, uh, in, uh, a loop of being anxious. And when we, uh, can pull ourselves- but, but because the brain and the nervous system are neuroplastic, we can shift out of a state of anxiety by practicing safety, by cultivating a sense of safety and experiencing that state, moving between those two. And the, um, pathways in our brains are myelinated when there's more frequent use of those pathways. And by that we mean that there's a, a fatty coating that, uh, uh, coats that sheath, uh, which coats that pathway that makes  traveling along it much more quick and easy.   Dr. Porges: We're not gonna be able to, in a sense, measure this or easily measure this. this And so it carries with it more of a metaphor of how the system is actually becoming, uh, more flexible. And that is, you know, and like, uh, when we demyelinate, we can demyelinate from starvation and for lack of stimulation. So we know that stimulation, especially early experiences, aid in terms of nerve nervous system, myelination. So this is what's happening- we're becoming more fluid, our ability to move states change. And that's why I like to coin it as a neural exercise. As opposed to,  let's say headphones that filter out sounds or only allow certain sounds in there would be more of a prosthesis, a sense accounting for what might be thought of as being neurodiversity. And I like to think not of is as neuroplasticity as much as the fact that we can shift state and when we shift state, then that neuroplasticity,  those exercises start to improve the fluidity of how we move back and forth from states. Start getting unstuck today If you're new to the Polyvagal Theory, looking to deepen your learning, and want to connect with others, then the Unstucking Academy: Foundations Membership is just for you . For only $10/month, you can learn through two courses, join Justin and others in a monthly Q&A, participate in Daily Growth challenges, and discuss with others in the forum. Learn more about the Unstucking Academy > Neural Exercises, Building Safety, and the Safe and Sound Protocol Justin: You know, in, in reading the- your work, Dr. Porges, you've used the word neural exercise a lot. I feel like, where I think that in reading this book, this is the first time where it really hit me that we were talking about is, um, I call it,  when I talk to my clients, I call it putting the reps in. It's not like you just get to safety and you're done. You practice it, you build it just like anything else really. If you wanna lift heavier weights, you gotta show up and do a little bit, and then you work your way up and eventually get to where you wanna be. And so with, with this book,  there seems to be more care or attention placed onto that. The, that the fact that it's incremental and there's small changes, and part of that evidence was sounds like from the practitioners who said things like "safe before sound." And we do little pieces, we titrate. It's not just, here's a bunch of safety for you, but here's the amount of safety you can handle. And then we kind of pull away from it, come back to it, process it, build on it.  Dr. Porges: Well, first of all, uh, Karen had this, these wonderful relationships with the providers and that led to actually the interactions and interviews with the clients. So this becomes the important  part. One can structure a theory and a model, but how it gets embedded in a person's lives- I mean, I really, uh, lean on Karen and give her, uh, the pat on the back for in a sense, getting that information out. Karen: So, as an example, children were very receptive to the amount of cues of safety that were embedded in the music through the filtration and, um, when we expanded the, when we  released SSP into the world of therapists, and now it's worldwide, um, and all kinds of therapists. Initially it was pediatric, um, OTs and, uh, PTs and speech language, uh, people. But then the trauma world heard wind of this and trauma therapists, psycho psychotherapists, uh, were interested in it and started using it their clients. And the, the same filtration in someone with a complex trauma background, uh, was, uh, was not received in the same way. So cues of safety to them were cues of, uh, vulnerability or, um, if they had, uh, a trauma that was interpersonal, they could be reminded of that experience. And even a little  bit of that, of input could be too much. So therapists started to titrate and, um, have shorter and shorter segments of listening, and tried to find that sweet spot where someone could accept, accept that input, and then take a break. And so  this concept of sort of mi- titration or even micro ti- titration really took hold. Uh, and it very, you know, each client is different. Each setting, each time you meet with your client is different. Um, so it's always shifting. There's no one way of delivering SSP and even with your,  same client, there's no one way of delivering. Dr. Porges: The, the therapist or the provider, what I learned, they really need to be truly Polyvagal informed. And what does that mean? It means they have to be aware of the state that their client is in. And they can't think of this as a tool that works the same on everyone. So by looking at people's faces, by listening to their voices, uh, and seeing the muscle tone in their body, they have to be able to infer with  physiological state their clients are moving into. Because many clients, especially those with trauma histories, are really numb too much of their body. And may miss their body's own reactions. And so the therapist has to really be, in a sense,  almost a parental figure to the client in monitoring their titration of this stimulation. Personally, I was really quite shocked 'cause I had years of experience with in more of a pediatric group in neurodivergent, and I never saw anyone react adversely. I just saw people just whoosh and become engaging. Uh, but when the trauma group started use this, I mean it took me on a journey of, I would say,  understanding what it is to be traumatized and what it is to be traumatized for many of those, especially those with complex trauma, is that the trauma was inflicted by someone with whom they had trusted. And often the trust was almost on a biological level, like a parent. And so the body's natural  response to a parent or to a caregiver is to be accessible. But now that accessibility has led to injury and the body learns, learns very well, and we can even say from our friend, Bessel Vander Kolk- the Body Keeps the Score. But in understanding this from a poly vehicle perspective, the body learned that accessibility was a portal to injury. It was vulnerability. And so the music always worked. This was the paradox and the irony- that even when they were getting adverse effects, it was working. Because happened was they listened, they became accessible. The internal bodily feelings, inter interoception, percolated upward to the cortex. And they said, "I know what that feeling is. That's the feeling that occurs before I get injured. I'm out of the room." And literally they start to tell us those things. And so we learned a lot about the accessibility versus  vulnerability dimension, and we learned that the nervous system really is on a journey. It wants to be accessible. But these associations of accessibility, visceral accessibility with injury are just powerful. And that's why they're in therapy. So they're in therapy because of exactly what's getting triggered. And now we gave them a neural exercise, which downregulated  their vulnerable vulnerability reactions. Karen: So, so that led to therapists really understanding how to titrate, um, because when they saw that reaction where suddenly the story was evoked and they were out of their body,  uh, then of course the therapist would stop the music and they would, you know, process and integrate and, uh, help that person come back, come back to their body. Um, but then they, people began to realize why wait for that? Let's take a shorter segment of listening, and before that happens, let's see what, you know, let's see how that can be helpful to this person. And what people have really come to understand is that what's so nice about, um, SSP is as a bottom up therapy, it doesn't require any cognitive processing. You don't have to talk about your story. It's not top-down in any way. In fact, the, the focus isn't on the story at all. The focus is on state. And what a gift to someone to learn more about their state, to understand more about their autonomic tendencies, and to let their body go through this experience without, without having to bring the story in.  Trauma narratives and the Safe and Sound Protocol Justin: So, there's not necessarily any trauma narrative sharing? Karen:  I mean, it's not to say that there isn't trauma narrative that is shared, and sometimes, you know, something will up during the listening that will be processed. But in general, for people who have avoided, um, say Cognitive Behavioral Therapy because they are avoiding talking about their story, this is a really nice alternative for them. And in fact, after going through SSP with a more safety infused into their system,  they may act, they may be ready then for cognitive therapy afterwards. Justin: What about the person that says, "I, I'm supposed to talk about my childhood and what I went through and my parents like, what are you talking about, Karen? I, I have to purge these things from myself." What about that person? Karen: I mean, I think a sensitive therapist will wanna listen, but also they'll wanna get back to the work  and they may encourage to say like, "No, let's, let's, rather than the story, let's get back to state." And that's what's lovely actually, is that it really is so state driven and, and you can process so much through your state. Dr. Porges: Yeah. the part  that I think is important about this discussion we're having right now is that it places the emphasis on the feelings or the individual's physiological aware awareness of their physiological reactivity. if we step back and ask, really, like in the whole area of trauma and about being locked into different states of defense and leading to addiction or anxiety, whatever terms we wanna use to describe these adaptive strategies that people are using, what we realize is  that they have numbed their body. And all the therapies are about is really a journey of re-embodiment. the SSP is a tool for that reem embodiment. And so when you get embodied and you feel your body, then the narratives  start taking on a different meaning. Ventral Vagal Safety can lead to Defensive Activation Justin: So, from SSP, it's not all first hugs and smiles. There are other things that kind of crop up is what I'm hearing. And in  the book, all the vignettes, lots of examples of, it's not just bliss. There, there are other things that kind of surface. When I described this to my client, I don't, I'm not an SP provider, but this concept, what I share with them is that you, you finally achieve some level of safety. And so the rest of your body, the stuff that's sort of stuck in there is like, thank you. Now pay attention to me. And it starts to surface and,  and bubble up. Is that, is that an apt metaphor for how SSP works? Dr. Porges: You're really saying that we're giving permission for the different parts. I'm gonna move into that model to express themselves  because they're not gonna take over as the dominant feature because you have a place to go to, you know, that you can be safe. That means you can hear, when you hear your body, when you feel your body, you no longer are using all your- for instance- neural energy to suppress bodily feelings. And there's a paradox here is that we, we come from a culture and society that thinks that attending and mental effort is really the, the premier experience. We should  have to work harder to do better, to be more productive, but we're doing that at great expense of the inhibition of our brainstem mechanisms that serve our foundational survival processes. Uh. Basically our autonomic state. And what we need to do is enna- enable the autonomic nervous system to move back into states of homeostasis, to support health growth,  restoration, and sociality. And so that's really what this process is, is giving the resource. And so Justin, the res- the resource enables people to move outta that safety zone, but with a tremendous sense of, uh, anticipation that they are capable moving back into it. Justin: It helps them access safety, which then opens up potential to self-regulate... Dr. Porges: But remember in the beginning, for many people, they don't know what safety feels like. And so it's a curiosity that they're being led on this journey and that curiosity for a traumatized individual triggers fear, uncertainty. And so what SSP provides is really this neural exercise of moving in and out of uncertainty with predictability Justin: The predictability being the co-regulation aspect of who you're working with and the actual musical Dr. Porges: ... actual prosodic content of the, of the sounds. Who is the Safe and Sound Protocol for? Justin: Who's SSP for Who should be seeking out SSP? Um, we'll start with there. And I guess after that would be, who's it not for? If anybody. The book covers a lot of different presentations of people seeking help. What do you think? Karen: Well, SSP is a nervous system  therapy, and it, it can support, um, all kinds of conditions and symptoms, um, that relate to the nervous system. And maybe let's forget about diagnoses. Uh, because really what the SSP can do is to help infuse safety into the nervous system to allow for more co-regulation, more openness, uh, less defensiveness, and more availability. Um, and that is, you know, safety is the beginning of all healing. Um, so, but we can also talk about who does benefit from SSP, and that's worthwhile too. So, uh, the  early earliest, uh, people who experienced the SSP were children on the autism spectrum, and that was, uh, that was a very successful attempt where Steve had the idea that rather than addressing reactions, um, andbehaviors, let's look at the  intervening variable between, uh, between a stimulus and a response, which is our autonomic state, and basically created SSP in fact, with, uh, children on the autism spectrum in mind. Maybe it's worth saying something a little more about that origin story, Steve. Autism and the Safe and Sound Protocol Dr. Porges: Well, it, it was,  I mean, it's a whole different perspective. When I was doing this work and was actually starting in the early nineties, or even late eighties. Um, basically behavioral modification was the tool to treat autistic kids. So it was all in the observable. And if you ever interact with autistic kids who are being conditioned, I mean your heart just is in great pain watching this 'cause you can feel what they're doing. They're trying to control a visceral reaction. I, I was really kind of interested in is if you could change the child's state with the reaction to the stimulus, would it be different? Because I could see that the physiological state was very important.  Now this reason I was asking that question was that my research from my dissertation onward, and if we're talking about decades, was all about looking at heart rate variability, which is really vagal regulation as the intervening variable of people's reactivity in the world. And so it was the idea that you need a more vagal  regulated state that created literally a resource for buffering. And this later became things like what Dan Siegel talks about, window of tolerance and other derivatives of that, which really are saying our physiological state mediates how we react to the world. And that  was really what the motivation was. Could I create a stimulation system that was easily administered to children? I will also tell you when I first developed this, and I was dealing now with hypersensitive, hyperactive young, uh, autistic individuals, and I was actually running 'em in  quartets four of at a time with their parents. And I was starting to see reciprocal play behavior amongst these kids. And then one totally, uh, previously dysregulated child who couldn't even have headset on. He was so sensitive, ran into this sound attenuating chamber I built, which had speakers in it and said, with his limited vocabulary, one word- "Safe." So you start to see  it being broadcast back at you and you, and the other one was, I was working with a 42-year-old adult autistic individual whose parents described him as the most nicest, most selfish person they had ever met. Now, what do they mean by that? They meant that everything, they interpret, every interaction with him about that was about him. He never asked them how they felt. No reciprocity. So, I I actually, uh, ran him through the five one hour sessions and, uh, by the end of the fifth hour, I walk into the room. He turns,  looks towards me, puts his hand out to me, makes direct face-to-face eye contact and says, "Good morning, Dr. Porges." Now, the other most interesting thing was I wanted to get his sense of his own feelings, you know, which is really what we're talking about. So I said to him, I said, "John, how do you feel?" And there was dead silence. As he's starting to try to figure out what are these feelings. And then he comes up with this very interesting way of saying "Relaxed," and, and a big smile came on his face. He had figured out that he was relaxed, and this was novel to him.  Karen: I think both those stories, um, also point to something that is worth making sure we say in the, in this conversation, and that is that how it's delivered and the, um, approach that the person has, the therapist or whoever's delivering SSP, uh, with that person. So the fact that Steve had already created a little cave with blankets around it so that a child who couldn't put headphones on could go inside this special place and they were cared for and they could experience it in that way, they know that that was, that, you know, that was someone really wanting to help them. And the same with John, you developed a really nice relationship, which is so clear through  those, um, videos that you have of him. Um, and so that's a really, uh, important point that the therapist themselves has to have really an attuned relational presence. And that is, um, so key and, and really, I don't know if it's half or if it's a quarter, but it's a very important or three quarters. Uh, it's a very important input into the experience of, uh, doing SSP. Dr. Porges: So one other side story. Um, we talk about what the,  what treatment of autism was in the late eighties and early nineties. And the children were really, they all had like, uh, ABAs, uh, specialists working with them, with M&Ms and Cheerios as feedback. And one child went through the SSP when it was called the Listing Project Protocol in my lab.  And the mother calls me up and says, "I'm having problems with the ABA teacher." I said, "How's he doing at home?" "Oh, doing great at home." And I said, "What's going on with the ABA teacher?" And that is he was asking the ABA teacher too many  questions. He was actually engaging her and it was disrupting her behavior. Justin: Wow. Very, but a lot of engagement though. That's great. Dr. Porges: Yeah. And with John, the 42-year-old, I saw videos of him with his father, and his father is trying to create this dialogue. And then John says, "  Oh, tell me about you. How are you doing?" And it was like, I was like, uh, what we learned, and it took me decades to learn this, because we start thinking that children on spectrum are not contingent- meaning they don't follow our directives. But if we watch the videos, we realize they're almost a hundred percent contingent. But the contingencies tend to be negative. Neurotypical children are not a hundred percent contingent. They change the flow. So if the  dialogue is, I'm talking to you and you're responding, you'll stop it and you'll ask me a you'll do a break and you'll do this transition. That's what co-regulation is about.   Safe and Sound Protocol and Co-regulation Justin: Karen, you, you mentioned earlier about the importance, I'm- I'm glad you started assigning at a percentage, although I'm not gonna hold you to it- but the percentage of co-regulation of the provider and or, or the parent in the room with the music. So it's not just music, there's the co-regulation aspect of it is really significant as well. Can you elaborate on why  that is helpful along with the music? Karen: Well, I mean, co-regulation is a cue of safety. You know, when you talk about in your, uh, I think you call it four pathways of healing, you, you say find safety, cultivate safety in your world. And you talk about humming and being in nature and, and walking and all the ways and co-regulation, uh, all the ways that you can begin to feel safe again in your, in your own body. And so that happens with the therapist, but on top of that experience, there is this, um, psychoeducation component of it. So, Polyvagal theory in and of itself is so, um, hopeful and, um, forgiving. And I think that clients do experience the benefits of Polyvagal theory just purely, uh, by being with their therapist. And then that just kind of infuses  and bleeds into the experience of SSP and moves back and forth. And, um, yeah, I, I feel that that's a really, it's a really important component and it's really important that that therapist is also themselves in a ventral vagal state.   Dr. Porges: Well, that, Karen, that's the point about like the ABA or the behavioral technician. They're not in a ventral, they were doing the behavior and the, the point is the behavior in the person, they're always broadcasting the autonomic state. That's what it is to be Polyvagal informed. You acknowledge that. So when a therapist uh, is in a sense Polyvagal-informed is sensitive to the state of the child or the client or themselves, then the whole dyadic  relationship changes. Skepticism of the Safe and Sound Protocol Justin: I want to, let's, let's zoom out as far as what a, a session looks like and let me preface this- i, I am always skeptical about pretty much everything. Okay. And I hope you don't mind me bringing a little bit of skepticism, but I want to, I wanna question something here . Uh, there's the music, there's co-regulation, some of these vignettes involved being outside a horse, a grieving ceremony. There was just all kinds of stuff that cue safety. So at what point or how does the SSP add to, or is foundational to all this? What's the, is there like a dividing line amongst all this? How do we know it's not just another thing being added on that is not the main mover, you know what I mean? But is integral to the process?  Dr. Porges: Let, let me try to be a little helpful on- it's not a standalone therapy. Let's just start there. It's a tool to change the state of the individual or to create an opportunity for that state to be changed. So, it fits in with any- virtually any other form of therapy that is respectful of the other individual's presence and feelings. So, it can be viewed as an, it's, it can accelerate the effects of treatments of others.  So the, your question is both very interesting. It's profound and in general it's viewed as unanswerable. Okay. Let me give you credit for what it is. However, there is a way of answering it.  And the question is, if you do therapy the way you normally do it with and without SSP, do you get any differences? And that is actually a paper that's almost ready for publication that was being done at a psych clinic where they did practice normal practice and practice, uh, uh, treatment with SSP. And the trajectories  are very different with extraordinary large statistical size of effects. I mean big. So the, the trajectory is different and that is actually the project. The same type of protocol is being used by a department of defense funded research grant because it's not that this is treating the anxiety or the depression or whatever to trauma effects it's helping the therapist accelerate the impact of therapy because you're changing the state of the client, making the  client's nervous system more accessible. Karen: And in all those cases, or the examples that you just brought up, that accessibility allowed for, for instance, someone to, uh, spend time with a horse, which other otherwise might have been scary or uncomfortable. Um, when you were talking about the grieving ceremony, the, the, uh, young, the older brother in that family, uh, was able to just be silly and kind of mimic the, um, you know, the, uh, wings of a bird. And without, you know, without SSP, that wouldn't have been, that would've been possible. Justin: it, it really helps well shift state and open up someone  to benefit from these other interventions. It compliments them, but it also sounds like it really bolsters them. But non SSP even I was, I was experimenting with different things in my therapy room. So besides the environment of the room, sometimes I would have soft music playing in the background. And I would ask my clients, just tell me how you feel about this and some of them would say that really helped me stay calm. Like it just helped me sort of focus. So I guess that without that, I, I see that same person without that little intervention. And they're still them and we still talk but with that little addition, it's, they said, it just helps me to sort of focus a little bit better. I've also experimented with like having a visual on a, my computer monitor of nature, just sort of, you know, expansive sort of, and people will say, I just, I like looking at it while I talk to you. It just helps me open up. So, SSP has probably an  enhanced version of, of these things. It's really triggering that safety state. Dr. Porges: You know, l let me build on what you're saying. There are certain modulations of sounds that our nervous system can't reject, and that's why it triggered in the traumatized individuals, that vulnerability. It's wired into us. It's how we talk to our pets, how we to our babies.  So there, there is a study that I did with my, my, when I had my active lab, and that was looking at the intention, the, uh, intonation of a maternal voice, uh, in, in its relationship to its calming ability on the baby. So are these frequencies being modulated more or less? And looking at the baby's heart rate changes and distress behaviors, using Ed Tronick's still face paradigm. So the mother is interacting, freezes her face. The baby gets dysregulated and then the mother comes back and talks to the baby to try calm the baby. The baby's heart rate was a, virtually a linear relationship to the prosodic features of the mother's voice. And so was the reduction of stress in terms of, uh, uh, this, uh, basically behaviors that were stressful occurring. But the point I'm making is that that was the core feature of what's in SSP, and so the kids calm down autonomically and behaviorally when there's intonation in  those frequencies. That's what SSP does. Why not Safe and Sight or Safe and Smell Protocol? Justin: Why music? Why not the Safe and Smells Protocol or the Safe and Sight Protocol? Dr. Porges: I'm gonna cut you short on that one. Jason. I'm gonna say, aren't you listening to what I said? The issue is the pattern of our nerve- our nervous system is wired to look at vocal intonation. And I'm gonna ask you,  do you have kids or do you have pets and or pets? Justin: Yes and yes. Dr. Porges: Okay. And the answer is, uh, what kind of pet do you have? Justin: Two dogs. Dr. Porges: Okay? How do you talk to your dogs? Justin: Um, when I'm not irritated, I do the, uh, higher pitched, you know, the prosodic kind of voice. Dr. Porges: Yes. And their reaction to both forms  almost immediate. And so when you use a more melodic voice, or like when I talk to my cat who's sitting behind me, uh, they know because that's phylogenetically embedded in social mammals is to have that modulated  sound and it's cross species. And you, the example is cross species. It's not that the cat or dog has learned, but they may get, when they get traumatized, it may, it's the same history of humans. It's someone that was, uh, they, they were accessible to someone and they were hurt and therefore, wham,  they're closing that door. Justin: SSP, the, the sound is really speaking to the mammalian aspect of, Dr. Porges: That's right. And we use the word safety, that's the word that's been used all through this podcast, but we can easily put- exchange it with the word trust, and then it starts taking on a different ecological validity. If I can trust the  source of those sounds, what happens to my body? Karen: And sound is our medium of connection between each other. And as such, it's very salient. Um,  Nina Krause has written a terrific book about sound and hearing in the brain, and it's called Of Sound Mind. And in her book, she, she cites that Helen Keller- well, first of all, she talks about how, you know, that game that people play with. Uh, if you had to lose one of your which one would you, you know, which one you lose? Well, um, sight is at the top of the list. Uh, but it, but really sound should be at the top of the list. And what, um, Nina talks about. me. To keep, no, yeah, yeah. To keep, yeah. What, what would be the last sense you'd want lose? It turns out that Helen Keller was talking about, um, uh, blindness sight  is the, is the sense that everyone wants to keep. What she said was- blindness disconnects us from things, but deafness disconnects us from people. Dr. Porges: The, the, the going  with this is that I have friends who have worked in institutions of the deaf and institutions of the blind, and I ask them questions very much related to what you're describing. Are the blind emotionally dysregulated, frequently? And the answer is no. But are the deaf, yes. And in fact with deafness, that's why the sign language is actually trying to use the face plus the hands because the face is that other part of our portal of presentation. But the issue is- it's not- there's not equivalence, and that's your point, Karen. Our nervous system sees patterns of  sound as connection and trust. Justin: So the sound aspect is just, sounds like it's the most salient, the most mammalian- Dr. Porges: In what we're, okay. So in my world- which  is the linkage between autonomic nervous system and social interaction- sound is literally, or at least the mechanisms that enable us to interpret or extract sound are linked to how our autonomic nervous system is working. So when we get under stress, we lose that capacity to really even pull in some of these prosodic sounds. So if you've ever been in a heated argument, it's very difficult to get this back down. Justin: Oh yeah.  I remember the first time I presented about Polyvagal Theory years ago was, um, at a school with the teachers and whatnot. I was just very raw putting it out there, and after I was done I could not hear accurately. And I remember that kind of lasted for a while and I picked up my son from school, very prosodic. He's, you know, my son and happy to see him, but he's in the back of my car talking. I have no idea what he is saying. And I was aware of it in the moment of like, oh, I'm in that state where I can't really hear anything.  Karen: Yeah, that's so interesting. Well, we know that our state affects our own prosody- the way our, we speak the melodic nature of our voice, but it also affects our capacity to process prosody; to hear prosody. Dr. Porges: Yeah. But we're also emphasizing, but something about our culture and our culture really emphasizes that it's the words that are important and not how we express those words. Is the Safe and Sound Protocol a cure-all? Justin: I will wrap it up with a general question. If someone reads the book- it begs the question of, is this really a cure-all? I'd love to hear your thoughts. There's 13 case studies. I went through the first, I read all of them, but I just went through the first four to list these. So in the first four alone, um, SSP addresses or helps address anxiety, flat affect, sensory, defensiveness, poor sleep, reduced social engagement, food restrictions, maladaptive self-soothing techniques, grief, chronic pain, muscle tension, jaw clenching... I'm gonna go and on and on that, that I haven't even finished half of what the first four case studies addresses. Someone's gonna read this and, and it has to, it begs the question like, really, is this a really a cure all for all these things? So I'll- take it away. Dr. Porges: I am gonna start because I'm not gonna let this slip away.  What if I said, if you're relaxed, none of those things would really bother you? Would I be accused of presenting a cure-all? If I said,  when your autonomic nervous system is in a state of homeostasis, the naturally emergent properties are to feel safe and all these problems disappear, uh, that would, in a sense give you the target of what you should be aiming for, and now how are you going to get some information to enhance that regulation? And that's what SSP is. So it's, if we think about in your mind and how you articulate the question is critical here, you're seeing the outcomes and you're saying input outcomes, that's not what this is about. It's- it's a input into an underlying regulatory system. And when that system is more in homeostatic regulation, what are the emergent properties? Different lesson to be learned. We're not treating depression. We're not treating anxiety. Uh, they're downstream. They're being manifest because the autonomic nervous system is in this state of dysregulation. Karen:  You asked earlier what, um, diagnoses are appropriate, you know, respond well to SSP. I mean SSP, what it helps to do is alleviate dysregulation, and when you alleviate dysregulation, all those other symptoms can be addressed. Dr. Porges: So with that, Karen, let me kind of like tell you part of the journey, which I never really shared with you. So I start to ask this big question- are there core features within most of the diagnoses? And are this, this pathophysiology, diagnostic, or pathologizing really a waste of time? Are their core features? Many of the core features are sensory; hyperreactive, hypersensitive. They're downstream of a nervous system that is under a state of threat.  So I have now collected data on a couple thousand people using survey tools. And so when people's autonomic nervous system is dysregulated based on the body perception questionnaire, the linkage with the hypersensitivities on all sensory dimensions is high- dysregulated autonomic nervous system; hypersensitivities across the gamut.  Now this becomes important because when we start looking at dimensions or disorders like autism, if you take the sensory system off the table, what percentage of autistic individuals are no longer autistic? All of them, because it's one of the core features. But it doesn't mean that this gets rid of autism, gets rid of the type of autism that would be derivative of a dysregulated autonomic nervous system.  And Justin, as the therapist in the room, uh, there are many people when their physiological systems get destabilized, they're exhibiting features of being on spectrum. Justin: So when someone says, "I have this disorder, will SSP help me?" The response is, "Are you dysregulated?" That's really what we're asking is, and so, "Yeah, we can help you out." Dr. Porges: Or let's say, or how do you feel? Do you feel calm ever? Do you feel peaceful? Or, I have a better projective test. And that is how do you deal with stillness? Do you think stillness is where you wanna go to? Or is stillness really get you really anxious? And that tells you something about this accessibility, vulnerability. So you have this dialogue on the aspect of stillness. Immobilizing. And what you'll find out, of course, is many people with the histories who will come into therapy, stillness is the frightening state. They don't wanna be there. It's falling into a great abyss. They wanna get out of that,  and that's why all this is going on. Not why it's, but- the issue is that tells you if that they can't deal with stillness. Maybe SS P is a good first thing to work with. Justin: I love- with my clients- I like getting to that point, which is, I know you do all these things to make yourself feel better. Um, but if I took all those things away from you, how would you feel if you just had to be immobile without stimulation? What happens internally and they say, "  Oh no, I don't want, Nope. That's where the fear or the anxiety or the whatever spikes." Final thoughts and kindness Dr. Porges: Well, I wanna say that this was a really a wonderful journey for,  for me with Karen. And this is something that we started together when SSP was being initially launched and we started to get this wonderful feedback from clinicians and from even clients at times about life changing events. And I would get these emails, I said, "Karen, here's an email, we gotta keep this together because this is an interesting story to tell." And Karen has been with me from that very beginning and she's become a great- not become- you are a great storyteller. Karen: Well, there were great stories to tell and we told a lot of them in this book, and I, I do hope that, um, the book doesn't come across as some sort of an advertisement. That's not our goal. Um, but the stories are so compelling that we can't not tell some of them, you know? And we hope that the message, the overall message, is one of hope and the possibility for change. And, and we hope that as many people as possible hear that message. Dr. Porges: Yeah. Sense of optimism that this is accessible and we can become more of who we are. Justin: It doesn't  come across as an advertisement. I, I was a little bit worried about that when I, when I got it, I was like, oh my gosh, this is just gonna be, but no, it, it's not. And I love the, the case breakdowns, the discussion of what's happening autonomically. I thought that was really helpful. So I like that, a aspect of it a lot to hear, you know, the conceptualizations. SSP on the community level Justin: L et me ask one more  kind of facetious, but kind of serious question at the same time. Let's say that, um, a certain city, any city in the world says, you know what, let's, let's, we're gonna install these speakers around the city that pump in SSP music in the background, and people will passively receive it as they exist. Would that just cure the whole city's- would, would everyone be happier? I'm honestly wondering. Dr. Porges: Um, okay, there.  I thought about- the reason I'm gonna jump into this, and I'll also tell you about the pilot study that I did do on something like this, and that was in a preschool classroom and watched the preschool behaviors. I had three classrooms, uh, this is a couple decades ago,  and I had one classroom which had the music without the filtering, one classroom with the filtering and one without any music. So the, basically what you have are kids in a preschool room sitting around or moving around, and when the music came on, they quieted down just to play music. But when the SSP came on, they gathered towards the speakers in groups. Okay, now- that was really my idea is- can I create a more social world?  Now- but your question is really, we live in a real world in the real world, we're confronted both with social cues and threat cues, and we have to be very careful in saying we are going to stay in this world of social engagement in the world that we're now living in now, which has a lot of threat cues. We need to be aware and we need to seamlessly respond into defensive modes and respond back to safe modes when the cues and context are appropriate.  Karen: And just to add on, you know, your, uh, your goal of wanting society to be calmer and people to be more relational- um, I get that. Uh, but the, the way to do that is for more people to alleviate their own dysregulation because while dysregulation is contagious, so is regulation. And so we all, we all can be part of this project.   Justin: Agreed. I love it. I think the, the microcosms like a, a school classroom, like what a great way, what a excellent opportunity to start pumping in a little bit more safety to help increase that distress tolerance, hopefully the vagal brake.   Department of Defense research grant and SSP Justin: Do you mind commenting real quick on the Department of Defense thing? What can you share the Department of Defense study? you before we wrap it up? Dr. Porges: A, a colleague of, of ours, uh,  J Kolacz, who's a professor at Ohio State University, uh, got a Department of Defense, uh, grant, to actually study this. So he was my postdoc and now he is continuing on this journey. He's quite a remarkable, he is very, uh, a scientist. And, and, and you know, I think that project, it shifts it from- because of the sufficient resources to do a good study- it changes it into from, let's run a few people here and there. Let's get a little pod to, in a sense, a true random controlled trial that in a sense will create a good, a good practices. When the military funds these types of projects, it has a lot to do with redeployment.  Karen: My, under my understanding is that they will be using the SSP along with, uh, another therapy, uh, to determine if veterans and individuals, they'll have different groups, um, can reduce their hyper vigilance, their anxiety,  and their, um, improve their sleep as a result of the group that includes, um, SSP. And, and an award like this is so, uh, monumental and such a great step. And honestly, it's important to thank all of the people who came, you know, research as a team sport. And there was so much research that led up to this point and so much real world evidence. So we can thank all SSP providers, all of the researchers, all of the clients. And, and we, we really would like to thank the clients who are in this book who at a vulnerable time in their lives shared their story with us. So we're really grateful to them, their therapists and every, everybody who played a part in this  book 'cause we really appreciate it. Outro to Stuck Not Broken episode 254 Justin:  Huuuge thanks again to Dr. Porges and Karen Onderko for sharing their time and their deep knowledge of the Safe and Sound Protocol and the nervous system. a couple of key takeaways for me are how SSP acts as a neural exercise. It helps the nervous system practice moving into and out of safety. It builds resilience- that capacity that we talk so much about here on the podcast and the students who learn about this in the Unstucking Academy- we, we spend a lot of time on building that capacity. SSP is not about forcing someone into a state of eternal and unending happiness and and bliss. That's not the goal, but more about gently accessing safety sometimes for the first time, and using that as an anchor to stay connected to the present moment, even when uncomfortable things pop into the body, which they probably will. I also really appreciate the emphasis on SSP being a tool that is used along with co-regulation from a safe other. It helps to make the nervous system more accessible or, or open or receptive to connection and to healing rather than a, a standalone cure-all. That- that is not the goal of it. Your next steps: I hope you got a deeper understanding of SSP. I know I absolutely did. Maybe your next step is to reflect on the question that I put forth during the talk- If I were to somehow remove all of your coping strategies, what would happen? How would you feel? What would your body do? If you'd react in a defensive manner, like anxiety or panic or fear would spike, that suggests that you could probably benefit from more safety in your system. If you answered that you could exist in stillness and stay connected to the present moment. It sounds like you have a lot of safety within you already, so make sure to maximize that and mindfully connect with your inner felt experience of safety. Author Bio: Justin Sunseri is a licensed Therapist and Coach specializing in trauma relief. He hosts the Stuck Not Broken podcast  and authored the Stuck Not Broken book series . Justin is passionate about the Polyvagal Theory and proudly serves on the Polyvagal Institute 's Editorial Board. He specializes in treating trauma and helps individuals get "unstuck" from their defensive states.